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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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121–130 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#121

Post by atomi »

danaris wrote: post #109
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

> The result has been a pause in income growth in the western world. We've benefited from cheap imported goods, but lost out in domestic growth. Except that's not true. There's been growth; it's just all gone to the very wealthy in the West.

I've read our production has more than doubled since the 90's; wages have not.

Re: The Real Class War

#122

Post by pas »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #117
pas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big ideological divide in families (usually between generations) is a serious symptom of our inability to really communicate and compromise. In large part these ideological groupings are meaningless and inconsequential. Mostly because it doesn't really matter, for most of the people the feedback is very much lost in the noise. (There's institutional inertia, states are big, changes are slow, Congress doesn't chan…

"The big ideological divide in families (usually between generations) is a serious symptom of our inability to really communicate and compromise. In large part these ideological groupings are meaningless and inconsequential." I think this is only true in very specific circumstances. Ideological divide can also mean disowning your child for being gay, which is why among homeless youth there's a disproportionate amount…

Excuse my wording, I probably should have said that exactly this "putting ideology before family and friends" leads to this divide and vicious cycle.

Re: The Real Class War

#123

Post by Pigo »

larnmar wrote: post #12
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

The election of Donald Trump could be seen as the result of the radicalisation of the working class.

I'm sure a lot of people agree with you, but I still see putting a war-hawk like Hillary in the oval office as a radical concept.

Re: The Real Class War

#124

Post by mrfredward »

danaris wrote: post #109
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

> The result has been a pause in income growth in the western world. We've benefited from cheap imported goods, but lost out in domestic growth. Except that's not true. There's been growth; it's just all gone to the very wealthy in the West.

Well, the executives making the outsourcing decisions still have their paychecks and people who own stock are reaping the profits from cheap labor. It matches the gp comment's description of events just fine.

Re: The Real Class War

#125

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

danaris wrote: post #109
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

> The result has been a pause in income growth in the western world. We've benefited from cheap imported goods, but lost out in domestic growth. Except that's not true. There's been growth; it's just all gone to the very wealthy in the West.

Sure, but "growth" isn't some physical thing that the very wealthy might have stolen. "All the income growth has gone to the very wealthy" means the same thing as "Income growth has paused, with an exception among the very wealthy".

Re: The Real Class War

#126

Post by WhompingWindows »

Pigo wrote: post #118
nsporillo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average voter doesn't care about the merits of competitive advantage. Maybe if the Chinese actually opened their markets up to competition would we see true benefits in the west. The problem of course is preventing the majority of the wealth going straight to the top.

Maybe if China played by the rules, and did something about ip theft...

China IS doing something about industrial espionage: they're supporting and encouraging it. This isn't dissimilar from what all the Western economies did with industrial espionage during the 1800's. In Rhode Island, we have the first mill in the US, known as Slater Mill, which was created by an industrial spy who stole secrets from England. The English were ahead in industry for textiles, coal mining, steam engines, steel, railroads, and all the other Europeans and Americans sent spies there to "tour" the factories or "apprentice" only to disappear just in time.

So, we shouldn't forget history and be shocked that the US is having its economic secrets stolen, as that's happened numerous times in the past.

Re: The Real Class War

#127

Post by take_a_breath »

mc32 wrote: post #116
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

One big problem is GHW, Clinton, GW and Obama said we’d be able to sell into their market and we’d come up on top. That the middle class would see more and better jobs as a consequence (we’d graduate from arduous manual labor into more value add). That’s been nonsense. Perot was prescient and he was right. But we laughed him off the stage. Instead, big biz, some bankers some dealmakers, politicians and other value ad…

Don’t forget how Reagan told us that tax cuts would “trickle down” and busting unions would make us all more prosperous.

Re: The Real Class War

#128

Post by hnuser77 »

kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

I think the author's take would be that the working class can radicalize all they want, but it probably won't change anything without the support of a significant part of the 10%-0.1%. I wish he had gone into detail on why he thinks the upper-middle class is required to effect political change. Is it because they have just enough capital? Or maybe they are closer to and more familiar with institutional power?

Re: The Real Class War

#129

Post by intended »

simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

That’s incorrect - the global pie has grown bigger.

Inches and markers exist which never existed before.

All those new workers are consumers for goods and services from America.

America soy beans are famously bought in China, as are American bonds.

Economically- if you get cheaper goods, you do more with the same income, meaning your quality of life goes up.

The issue is not the growth of China- the issue is the distribution of wealth.

As the pie has grown, the share of the pie has changed.

Re: The Real Class War

#130

Post by mc32 »

take_a_breath wrote: post #127
mc32 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big problem is GHW, Clinton, GW and Obama said we’d be able to sell into their market and we’d come up on top. That the middle class would see more and better jobs as a consequence (we’d graduate from arduous manual labor into more value add). That’s been nonsense. Perot was prescient and he was right. But we laughed him off the stage. Instead, big biz, some bankers some dealmakers, politicians and other value ad…

Don’t forget how Reagan told us that tax cuts would “trickle down” and busting unions would make us all more prosperous.

No doubt but that’s amateurish compared to how we got screwed by people who said they were fighting FOR US.

On the other hand he deregulated airlines and telephony which jump started the tech revolution.

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