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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#91

Post by frockington1 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #36
neonate wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there something patronizing, even patrician, about saying "the propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class"? Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine? There seems to me a great assumption in saying that they are "manipulated". Who isn't? This is the idea of false consciousness ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness ), and it has always seemed questionable to me. Who…

> Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine? Could it not be argued that the legitimacy of views depends on how much information the person has access to? The average working-class person, due to lack of free time and interest may be unable to acquire more information than is conveniently delivered to them through a handful of sources, and if those sources are controlled by certain actors and not balanced by o…

Lets win back the working class by disparaging them? This doesn't seem like the greatest path to success

Re: The Real Class War

#92

Post by frockington1 »

_bxg1 wrote: post #19
pjc50 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I think a lot of people are worried about the kind of radicalization that blames everything on intellectuals, foreigners, minorities and women.

Well right now we have that kind without any of the useful economic kind. So it can't get worse.

Unemployment is at historical lows, consumer confidence is at historic highs. It can get so much worse. Look at Venezuela and Colombia for modern examples of what happens in failed states

Re: The Real Class War

#93

Post by frockington1 »

polytely wrote: post #87
singularity2001 wrote: post #69

What is often forgotten is the hyperdeflation of technology. All your gadges would be worth many millions in pre 2000 dollars. Your car is probably better in many ways than a million dollar car from 1980.

Everything is way more accessible than pre-2000's, but I would argue that the overall quality of the user-experience is probably worse. If you buy a TV today, you get amazing image quality, but you also have to live with the fact that the TV spies on you and that the software it runs on will discontinue in 5 years. (this of course doesn't matter because it's been designed to break before that point). I would gladly t…

[flagged]

Re: The Real Class War

#94

Post by CapricornNoble »

_bxg1 wrote: post #16
larnmar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the working class turns to radicalism what makes you think it will be the kind of radicalism you agree with? It’s more likely to be the kind of radicalism you find terrifying.

The kind of radicalism that raises my taxes to keep our country from falling apart is the kind I'm fully on-board with. Or, better yet, taxes the massive, useless dragon-hoards of the 0.1%. But I'm a team player; I don't mind if mine go up too.

>>>Or, better yet, taxes the massive, useless dragon-hoards of the 0.1%.

You do realize that "net worth" != cash/liquidity, right? Even if the billionaires were all sitting on piles of literal money that you could confiscate, it would be a mere band-aid on the Federal government's budget[1], let alone the state and local budgets. So what's the plan past the next few years those few trillions buys you, when you won't be able to dump the wealthy upside down and shake all of the change out of their pockets a second time?

[1]https://checkyourfact.com/2019/02/15/fact-check-wealth-billi...

Re: The Real Class War

#95

Post by frockington1 »

tjpnz wrote: post #59

>Since at least 2016, the divide between the “working class” and the “elite” has been considered a defining issue in American (and Western) politics. I watch a bit of US news (CNN et cetera) when travelling and almost never hear it defined in those terms. Based on what I've seen the debate is almost entirely framed in terms of the "middle class" and the elites.

In America the middle class defines almost everybody. Nobody want to be "upper class" because then you'll be the target of envy, and nobody wants to be "lower class" because of insecurity. For Americans, the phrase "upper middle class" means "Upper class but not multi million house"

Re: The Real Class War

#96

Post by pas »

vinceguidry wrote: post #75
kortilla wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> political system to organise itself to reward work done How do you decide which work is valuable and which work isn’t?

The harsh truth is that your largest effects will always be local. What you do for your immediate family and friends will always dwarf anything you can do for society. To expect your day to day to serve a larger social purpose is to subordinate either your lifestyle or your cognitive integrity to something you’ll never be able to completely convince yourself isn’t a lie you’re telling yourself. If you can put your ki…

The big ideological divide in families (usually between generations) is a serious symptom of our inability to really communicate and compromise. In large part these ideological groupings are meaningless and inconsequential. Mostly because it doesn't really matter, for most of the people the feedback is very much lost in the noise. (There's institutional inertia, states are big, changes are slow, Congress doesn't change that fast anyway, the Senate is entrenched; and similar situations exist in other countries too.)

And thus it's hard to reconcile how trivial it is that people don't see what's going on, yet they are the problem themselves.

This drives people mad on both/all levels.

Re: The Real Class War

#97

Post by frockington1 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #77
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

Agreed. The author is looking through slightly blue tinted glasses. The "working class" put "their guy" in a certain colored house in the US and got together to tell the EU to screw off in the UK. They might not be using their political power for things we all agree with or you could argue they're all being duped but they certainly aren't powerless. Furthermore, I think the author is over stating the homogeneity of w…

I agree with you, the author seems to assume that Brexit/Trump/France are all one-off political movements.

I'm not even so sure as to how homogeneous tech i if the drama at Google is any indication. Academia probably is as they have a financial interest in the federal government expanding.

Re: The Real Class War

#98

Post by arkh »

> Indeed the conspicuous embrace of “elite values” by journalists and academics is often little more than an aspi­rational attempt to remain connected to an economically distant elite—just as educated millennials’ conspicuous consumption of “ex­periences” often serves as a necessary distraction from the grim reality that most will never be able to own a home.

> An entire “creative class” ideology was constructed to explain this phenomenon, but its intensity simply concealed the desperation of second-tier elites to assuage their status anxiety.

The author doesn't pull any punch sent the bourgeoisie way.

Re: The Real Class War

#99

Post by HashThis »

The US has healthy capitalism, and a separate theft by crony capitalism. GDP growth is stolen away from workers to investors. Crony capitalism has completely spread across the pharma industry, medical, banking, and so much more.

US congress men and women sell out on the key areas where crony capitalists need their laws changed.

Re: The Real Class War

#100

Post by rustyboy »

frockington1 wrote: post #90
dlkf wrote: post #88

Most places with high per-capita GDP (Canada, Scandinavia, England, Germany etc) have found that they can make meaningful, consistent, incremental progress on a lot of the problems Krein is trying to address through introducing a public system in sectors like healthcare, education, and child care - probably literally the only tack Krein would never agree to. The problem isn't "billionaires" or "capitalism." I would p…

I would rather live in a country where an individual can save and invest to become a billionaire. Look at America vs Canada, Scandinavia, England, and Germany the last decade. Where is the growth and innovation in those countries? Why do brilliant people flock to America to start their start up? I want to live in a country with opportunity, not one of equality. Thankfully with an American or EU passport you can choos…

That's a false dichotomy. There is no reason that you can't have the opportunity to be a billionaire, while making sure that no one goes homeless or dies from a preventable disease.

People love to point to FANNG but the reality is America did this for the boomers, union membership was over 30% and we still had super wealthy people. CEO to average employee income was around 80:1, now it's closer to 250:1.

When 3 people own 50% of all wealth in America (1) it's not insane to say that we have a serious problem. I don't want everyone in America guaranteed a six figure salary but come on there's got to be a better balance.

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2017/11/09/the-3-ric...

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