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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#31

Post by neonate »

tranced wrote: post #4

Recently, I have a friend group who all graduated from Stanford, with relatively upper middle class(but not suburb/NY upper middle class) roots, and you might even describe as "woke" who belonged to a fb messenger group called "Anti Asian Asian Group". I felt like I had to call them out on it. Though they made the group as a play on "anti social social club" and to counter conservative sentiments their upper class co…

> those who almost don't have the opportunity to decide who to become

That's an interesting phrase. Can you say what you mean by it?

Re: The Real Class War

#32

Post by tristram_shandy »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #26
tristram_shandy wrote: post #6

Amusing - it's immediately obvious that Harvard's political philosophy degrees, or at least Julius Krein's, seem to be given out based on word count and not much to do with political philosophy. It's regrettable to see an Ivy League education wasted on a man that would go on to declare himself an alt-right nationalist, and start his own 'zine to provide his readership his own shallow intellectual veneer over their bi…

Did you even read TFA? I understand a little of what you're saying in your second paragraph, and personally I prefer the term 'working poor' instead of 'working class'. Since people these days can work 3 jobs and still be poor. But these kinds of definitions are not what should be focused on. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I see no evidence for the argument you make in your third paragraph. Nor do I…

[flagged]

Re: The Real Class War

#33

Post by neonate »

_bxg1 wrote: post #14
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

There's radical energy there, but here's the clincher: it will never turn into anything productive because the Republican propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class into continuing to think that public services are their enemy . They will rant and holler about communism until the billionaires have milked them of their very last dollar, and then blame that on communism too. The very policies t…

Isn't there something patronizing, even patrician, about saying "the propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class"? Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine? There seems to me a great assumption in saying that they are "manipulated". Who isn't?

This is the idea of false consciousness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness), and it has always seemed questionable to me. Who are we to say that someone else's way of relating to their own life and their own concerns is wrong? Why should their priorities be any different than they are?

By the way, I'm not trying to start an argument. These are questions that I worry about myself, and I'm genuinely interested.

Re: The Real Class War

#34

Post by kortilla »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #22
chii wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are just quietly building businesses, rather than make flashy headlines. You don't need to "advance humanity" - just creating a service or product to satisfy since other human's needs is a good enough goal.

Advancing humanity should be a requirement for access to that kind of money. It's a hugely privileged position to be in, and the idea that it comes with exactly zero responsibility to Rest of World is nonsensical.

Why? The service and/or product provided by their business is providing significant value to society (lest they wouldn’t be collecting profit). Is the reward for creating a successful business really more responsibility to just give back instead of using it to create more business?

Re: The Real Class War

#35

Post by Synaesthesia »

anigbrowl wrote: post #7

Theorists of capitalism long argued that it and it alone could efficiently distribute resources across an economy (though not, oddly, within a firm). This might be true in an economy whose rules about contrantracts, commerce, and property relations were fixed and predictable, but most economic simulations overlook or sidestep the fact that the most powerful economic incumbents can and do adjust the legal conditions t…

Adam Smith had recognised that in “Wealth of Nations”.

He goes on to conclude that “the mercantile system” allows the “merchants and manufacturers” to pervert legislation towards their “sole end and purpose” – production for profit – and away from the legitimate “sole end and purpose” of production – to satisfy human needs.

He also points out that the interests of these manufacturers, have been “peculiarly attended to” by the government.

Re: The Real Class War

#36

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

neonate wrote: post #33
_bxg1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's radical energy there, but here's the clincher: it will never turn into anything productive because the Republican propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class into continuing to think that public services are their enemy . They will rant and holler about communism until the billionaires have milked them of their very last dollar, and then blame that on communism too. The very policies t…

Isn't there something patronizing, even patrician, about saying "the propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class"? Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine? There seems to me a great assumption in saying that they are "manipulated". Who isn't? This is the idea of false consciousness ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness ), and it has always seemed questionable to me. Who…

> Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine?

Could it not be argued that the legitimacy of views depends on how much information the person has access to? The average working-class person, due to lack of free time and interest may be unable to acquire more information than is conveniently delivered to them through a handful of sources, and if those sources are controlled by certain actors and not balanced by other sources, then that would appear to place a limitation on how informed their views might be.

Some influential 19th-century traditions of working-class radicalism heavily emphasized learning for the sake of it, but I am not sure that conditions today are conducive to that.

Re: The Real Class War

#37

Post by nl »

_bxg1 wrote: post #19
pjc50 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but I think a lot of people are worried about the kind of radicalization that blames everything on intellectuals, foreigners, minorities and women.

Well right now we have that kind without any of the useful economic kind. So it can't get worse.

Yeah it absolutely 100% can get worse.

The Cambodian killing fields were less than 50 years ago. The Rwandan genocide was only 25 years ago. The Rohingya genocide was less than 3 years ago.

"Us vs Them" is a dangerous game.

Re: The Real Class War

#38

Post by kortilla »

larnmar wrote: post #23
chii wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they are just quietly building businesses, rather than make flashy headlines. You don't need to "advance humanity" - just creating a service or product to satisfy since other human's needs is a good enough goal.

Sure, but once you’ve done that and you’re rich, what do you do then? For most billionaires the answer seems to be that you buy a moderately upgraded version of all the stuff you had when you were middle class, and then you sit around content to watch the numbers slowly increase. Do something interesting! It doesn’t have to be noble, it doesn’t have to be for the greater good, just do something ! Build a palace to ri…

> For most billionaires the answer seems to be that you buy a moderately upgraded version of all the stuff you had when you were middle class,

I don’t think you know what billionaires live like. Either that or the middle class you refer to is something very different from the one in the states. A 150ft yacht that you fly to with your helicopter from an airport you landed at with your private plane isn’t really relatable to anything in the middle class... unless you count jumping out of a tree into a canoe.

Re: The Real Class War

#39

Post by nl »

neonate wrote: post #29

I read it, though not closely, and am still unclear what is the "real class war". The educated-but-alienated professional elite against the oligarchs? I'm just guessing. Also, he kind of loses it in the final paragraphs, which weakened my impression of the rest.

>I read it, though not closely, and am still unclear what is the "real class war"

The real class war is between the 0.1 percent and (at most) the 10 percent—or, more precisely, between elites primarily dependent on capital gains and those primarily dependent on profes­sional labor.

It's pretty clearly defined.

It's the group that makes their money primarily from investment returns vs those who make their money primarily from wages/salaries/payments for skills.

Re: The Real Class War

#40

Post by goatinaboat »

larnmar wrote: post #15
_bxg1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's radical energy there, but here's the clincher: it will never turn into anything productive because the Republican propaganda machine has so effectively manipulated the working class into continuing to think that public services are their enemy . They will rant and holler about communism until the billionaires have milked them of their very last dollar, and then blame that on communism too. The very policies t…

If the working class turns to radicalism what makes you think it will be the kind of radicalism you agree with? It’s more likely to be the kind of radicalism you find terrifying.

It’s more likely to be the kind of radicalism you find terrifying.

Exactly this. The “woke” at lavishly expensive colleges or in richly rewarded tech-adjacent jobs are kidding themselves if they think their solidarity with the genuine Workers will in any way be reciprocated. They will be up against the wall with the investment bankers.

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