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Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#311

Post by gwright »

krnlpnc wrote: post #301
gwright wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a minimum wage intended to provide support for one person or for a family (including dependents)? You aren't really clear in your comment on this point, which is common confusion in much discussion of this topic. If it is for an entire family, then shouldn't there be a different, lower minimum wage for an individual without a family? What about a teenager with an after school job? What about a retiree who is just…

IMO an average household. Going into more detail than that is a slippery slope towards profiling and discriminatory pay.

How does that work? If the minimum wage is intended to be sufficient for an "average household", then shouldn't it be less for a household without children, and smaller still for a single person?

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#312

Post by BurningFrog »

fzeroracer wrote: post #308
BurningFrog wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Job skills to learn for people who can't get a minimum wage job can be - Getting to work on time and every day. - Functioning in a workplace without getting in fights. - Sobriety. - A basic knowledge of English. Once you've mastered those, McDonalds will be happy to hire you.

Those aren't job skills. Those are all things you learn as part of your basic education. So again, what actual skills do you learn on the job? If your argument is that we should remove the minimum wage to help people who can't make it through the educational system, I think the actual argument is that our educational system is fucked and needs to be fixed. Even then, most of the unemployed have those skills you've me…

Those are definitely skills many at the bottom lack. They weren't part of my basic education, but I'm sure we went to different schools.

Regardless, people without those skills exist. Us HN people never meet them, and have a hard time imagining their lives, but they're still out there.

I completely agree that our educational system is fucked and needs to be fixed. I don't see how that would help the people who already went through the fucked up version, even if it ever got fixed, which I think we can agree isn't likely the next decade at least?

To learn about how the "permanent underclass" lives, You could do worse than reading "Dignity": https://www.amazon.com/Dignity-Seeking-Respect-Back-America/...

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#313

Post by Scapeghost »

sudosysgen wrote: post #294
Scapeghost wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not exactly homeless, employed people not being able to afford their own house is the norm instead of the exception in the majority of the world. In the "East" and Middle East, many employed young adults live with their parents instead of moving out, even after getting married. In the UAE for example, many expats live in crammed conditions with as many as 6 people in a single room ! and sharing a single bathroo…

I come from Morocco. There, until recent times, most left the family house to go buy their first home, after their first real job. "Renter" was an insult because you had to be really poor to have to rent. Now that speculation and foreign investment is flooding the housing markets and land prices have literally went up 3000x in some cities, it's changing. It's not a first world dream, it's a problem that's rising ever…

Thanks for the different perspective. I guess Moroccans are/were relatively more prosperous than other Middle-Eastern nations.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#314

Post by CoffeeDregs »

I consider myself a fairly educated fence-squatter on this topic but I think it's too early to tell and any assessment is highly confounded by our central bank's actions. That said, I have talked with SF restaurateurs and they're very concerned (but this, too, is confounded by the "SF Employee Mandate" and by the effect of the tradewar on China's funding of US trade tourism (group reservations at SF restaurants are trending way down))...

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#315

Post by CoffeeDregs »

BurningFrog wrote: post #237
pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

> In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder The bottom of the ladder is the unemployed, who make $0/h. The good faith argument for no minimum wage is that those people would have a much bigger chance to find jobs and build job skills.

> The bottom of the ladder is the unemployed, who make $0/h.

If government programs are included, the unemployed definitely don't "make" $0/hour. As is often pointed out, taxpayers are effectively funding the underpayment of workers Walmart, McDonalds, etc because of government subsidies.

I don't have a dog in this hunt but the issue is much too complicated by government action to say unequivocally that the unemployed "make" $0. I'm not sure if it's good or bad but I definitely lean toward "we've made it too complicated".

[Now I'll go back to sorting through baffling health insurance complexity...]

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#316

Post by marcusverus »

sudosysgen wrote: post #286
marcusverus wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are the poor exploited?

They possess essentially no power in labour negotiations, and most of them live under the yoke of debt.

I agree with those statements, and still dispute your use of the word 'exploit' insomuch as it implies unfairness or some kind of wrongdoing on the part of society.

Society has implemented welfare safety nets and minimum wages for the express purpose of improving the lot of the poor, at a non-trivial cost to the rest (i.e. financial net-contributors) of society. The wages that the poor are able to command (above the proscribed price floor) are the result of market forces of supply and demand; the prevalence of unskilled labor results in low pay--not society or greedy business owners.

The fact that society doesn't do even more to put money in the pockets of the poor can't be 'exploitation', unless you're 'exploiting' a homeless man when you put a dollar in his cup, when you could've put two.

Unless you're talking about loansharks, pay-day-lenders, and that sort of thing, in which case you're right, screw those guys.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#317

Post by krnlpnc »

gwright wrote: post #311
krnlpnc wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO an average household. Going into more detail than that is a slippery slope towards profiling and discriminatory pay.

How does that work? If the minimum wage is intended to be sufficient for an "average household", then shouldn't it be less for a household without children, and smaller still for a single person?

That is discrimination.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#318

Post by gwright »

krnlpnc wrote: post #317
gwright wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that work? If the minimum wage is intended to be sufficient for an "average household", then shouldn't it be less for a household without children, and smaller still for a single person?

That is discrimination.

So by your logic an employer would be required to pay every employee a wage that would allow them to support a family even if they don't have a family to support?

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#319

Post by asdff »

0xffff2 wrote: post #194
asdff wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peg it so full time hours is 3x the local 1br apartment rent, then it would make a difference for so many people currently working 60-80 weeks to live paycheck to paycheck, unable to save enough to even afford the proportionally massive upfront cost of moving to a cheaper area.

Ha. 3x the local 1br apartment rent would put minimum wage higher than my current salary as a software engineer in the bay area (granted, I'm a government software engineer, not a FAANG software engineer). I don't know how many localities this would work for, but given the comically high wage (~$55/hr) you would get in many bay area cities, I'm guessing it's not many.

Yikes. LA area those numbers look more like $24 an hour on average. Perhaps in exceptional places like the SF bay area it would make more sense to invest in large scale public housing projects, with rents capped to 1/3 full time at minimum wage.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#320

Post by krnlpnc »

gwright wrote: post #318
krnlpnc wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is discrimination.

So by your logic an employer would be required to pay every employee a wage that would allow them to support a family even if they don't have a family to support?

Yes. I’m talking about the minimum wage for any employee.

Consider the fact that it is illegal in the US to ask an interviewee their age, marital status, and family status, among other things.

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