Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true • Hacker News Board

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#211

Post by aianus » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

krnlpnc wrote: post #208

qzx_pierri wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, but people who argue for it most vocally refuse to acknowledge the fact that it’s not economically feasible to reward the lowest paid people with a MUCH MORE than comfortable lifestyle. The minimum wage is for two things: To prevent the exploitation of workers at a certain level, and to allow workers to support themselves. Some people also fail to realize that there will always be poor people. The only…

Minimum wage works out to about $2500/mo before taxes where I live. That’s not enough to pay for rent, utilities, food and incidentals. Not to mention insurance(s). Not to mention a car if your commute requires it. Not to mention family/dependents. Not to mention emergency savings. Not to mention retirement. The list goes on. It’s not about a “much more than comfortable lifestyle”. It’s about establishing a baseline…

That’s nuts, I lived a luxurious life in college on less than that. It’s certainly enough money for a room and food and a car and savings left over in nearly every US municipality.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#212

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #204

buboard wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is did this raise average wages? There is litle benefit otherwise unless the min wage is way too low

The minimum wage is way too low.

Too low for what purpose?

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#213

Post by ScottBurson » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:18 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

> The reality for us every-day workers is that either the minimum wage is increased or we'll have to make up for it in taxes that support programs to compensate for the lack of a liveable wage.

Exactly. Too low a minimum wage actually becomes a subsidy to employers.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Post by Izkata » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:20 PM UTC

take_a_breath wrote: post #206

Izkata wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? > Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. My understanding is that plenty of the arguments against it are from people concerned about the areas of the country still near the federal minimum. It's absolutely a good-faith…

How do you define “reasonable”? The bill that passed the House wouldn’t get to $15/hr until 2025. That would be a 4.6% annual increase (CAGR) going back to 2009 when the $7.25 rate was implemented. That might be a little higher than you’d like, but is it “unreasonable”? Maybe a compromise could include a longer ramp or a ramp to $13 or $14, but I haven’t heard that argument presented. If we tracked inflation since 20…

Indeed; it's certainly possible the people making that argument are misinformed about the ramp-up, or maybe they really don't think it's slow enough. And that's assuming they're wrong, maybe we just haven't seen the effects yet because we're not yet in 2025.

But misinformed isn't bad-faith. I was pointing out that, yes, actually listening to the other side does reveal real good-faith arguments against the increase.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Post by undersuit » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:21 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

>The best solution appears to be to raise the minimum wage to a level that can support a person without government assistance and index it for inflation.

Which person? I contend that the person should be a 4 person family(so that I can throw out the oft proposed $15/hr rate fitting pretty closely with the US federal poverty rate of a similar family after taxes.) Other people say minimum wage is only for teenagers entering the work force.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#216

Post by monocasa » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

undersuit wrote: post #215

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

>The best solution appears to be to raise the minimum wage to a level that can support a person without government assistance and index it for inflation. Which person? I contend that the person should be a 4 person family(so that I can throw out the oft proposed $15/hr rate fitting pretty closely with the US federal poverty rate of a similar family after taxes.) Other people say minimum wage is only for teenagers ent…

Well, luckliy FDR himself discussed the concept in a speech as he signed one of the base laws to allow a federal minimum wage.

> In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

Given that (and the context of these words in the late '30s), I'd say supporting a family of four is closer than teenagers who don't need the money.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#217

Post by Alex3917 » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #213

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

> The reality for us every-day workers is that either the minimum wage is increased or we'll have to make up for it in taxes that support programs to compensate for the lack of a liveable wage. Exactly. Too low a minimum wage actually becomes a subsidy to employers.

Higher minimum wage is a subsidy for tech companies though. A better policy would be UBI rather than higher minimum wage.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Post by darawk » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:31 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #19

darawk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

> Some businesses cannot be profitable and therefore will not exist at certain minimum wages, though. It's also worth noting that some businesses probably can't be profitable without chattel slavery, though it's hard to find examples since the practice has been illegal for so long. > The US minimum wage is a big part of why manufacturing jobs have moved out of the US, for instance. No. I'd say the bigger part of the…

> It's also worth noting that some businesses probably can't be profitable without chattel slavery, though it's hard to find examples since the practice has been illegal for so long.

The difference between slavery and wages is that one of them is enforced by violence. The other is an offer, that may be taken or left. That difference is supremely important, and makes those things completely incomparable.

> No. I'd say the bigger part of the reason was free trade agreements with countries with substantially lower wages, which encouraged job movement for little more than wage arbitrage reasons, minimum wage or no. The average income per capita in Bangladesh is apparently $600/year [1]. Americans would starve and die of exposure on those wages.

I mean, I think we're saying the same thing. Those free trade agreements are what enabled the labor to be off-shored, because the labor is cheaper. I don't think we disagree here.

> The average income per capita in Bangladesh is apparently $600/year [1]. Americans would starve and die of exposure on those wages.

No they wouldn't. Nobody takes a job at a wage that causes them to starve and die of exposure. Therefore such jobs do not exist. You take a job so as to avoid starving and dying of exposure. If you are going to starve and die anyway, you might as well not be working.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Post by LegitShady » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:35 PM UTC

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #114

michaelmrose wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method of quoting is unreadable on mobile

Selecting correct presentation methods should be up to the platform, not the users.

the user chose the wrong blocks. There's no way for the platform to know

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Post by take_a_breath » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

pg_bot wrote: post #157

take_a_breath wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your fundamental assumption is that labor economics works like an economics 101 course. It doesn’t, that’s why it has it‘s own field of study. As an example, free markets depend on equal information and workers don’t have the same information as employers, so their ability to negotiate isn’t nearly as robust as you imply. Also, many companies enjoy a monopsony on local labor which distorts the traditional relationshi…

While no system works exactly like models do, there is nothing magical about the economics of labor. Free markets do not depend on equal information. Almost every single market has some level of asymmetric information, and yet markets function. Plus it's not like a lot of information is hidden by minimum wage employers, almost every single job description will include expected wages in the description. It's fairly ea…

This article isn’t a justification for raising the minimum wage, it is a commentary on how the arguments against raising the minimum wage have proved false in the recent wave of minimum wage increases. You seem to ignore that to attack strawmen and throw arguments at the wall.

Monopsonies certainly exist, it’s why we study them in labor economics courses.M and why economists write reports about their existence. [0] Buyers and sellers having equal access to information is a foundational aspect of free markets. [1]

[0] https://eh.net/encyclopedia/monopsony-in-american-labor-mark...

[1] https://www.thebalance.com/market-economy-characteristics-ex...