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Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#41

Post by sjg007 »

darawk wrote: post #4
dv_dt wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society. Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of improving operating efficiency.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

Same with illegal immigration. Some businesses won't be profitable or exist without them.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#43

Post by whatok »

Flozzin wrote: post #17
darawk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

If a business can only exist if you exploit your labor force, then maybe your business shouldn't exist. The portion of people that work jobs for fun or a little extra income are a minority. There are more examples of people working several minimum wage jobs just trying to survive. Maybe there is a compromise somewhere though. How about if you pay the minimum wage, then the owners/stake holders cannot make more than t…

Businesses need cheap labor from outside of the US because everyone in x industry is using cheap labor that has an artificial ceiling due to years of unchecked illegal immigration. Competition in x industry is now centered around this new labor price point and in some cases is far below minimum wage. At that point, many drop out of the labor force instead of working a difficult and manual labor job that pays less than minimum wage. This is a failure of government to have a coherent and sensible immigration policy and an additional failure to deal with the spillover effects of not having one.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#44

Post by petra »

baron816 wrote: post #15
Ididntdothis wrote: post #6

It seems that a lot of economics as it’s used for political decisions is way oversimplified to the point of being useless or just plain wrong. The minimum wage issue is an example where reality is much more subtle and complex than what a lot of economists in the news say. Same for tax cuts for upper incomes that were supposed to spur investments in new technologies but seem to have done more to drive up asset prices.…

> what a lot of economists in the news say TV economists are definitely a different breed. Most real labor economists acknowledge that the issue is tricky. I (not an economist) don’t like the minimum wage since it’s really a poor tool for the job. Society agrees that people should have a minimum standard of living, but then place the burden of providing that standard on a very narrow range of businesses. That burden…

There are plenty of ways to view the role of businesses in society.

One particular way is "the triple bottom line": part of running a business is a responsibility for taking care of your employees, your community and the environment.

And minimum wage laws are a part of that.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#45

Post by ohazi »

Pigo wrote: post #8
atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

I've read reports of Target, and similar companies, cutting back hours of many employees. I take such reports as anecdotal, but I didn't catch them talking about this in the article at all.

That's to avoid paying for health insurance (two 20 hour employees with no insurance vs. one 40 hour employee with insurance). Minimum wage applies across the board, so cutting hours wouldn't change anything.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#46

Post by blix »

Cheyana wrote: post #18
Pigo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read reports of Target, and similar companies, cutting back hours of many employees. I take such reports as anecdotal, but I didn't catch them talking about this in the article at all.

I work part-time stocking shelves at a Walmart, and I can say from first-hand experience that while there is talk of cutting hours, the reality is that it won't happen at this time. Shelves don't stock themselves. Robots are a long way away, no matter what you hear, as the current process is inefficient enough to make it difficult for automation. Robots won't clean poop out of the urinals, or off the floors (yes, peo…

> The CEO of Walmart even advised the feds that they should raise the minimum wage.

High minimum wages favor larger entities than can leverage economies of scale. Amazon has expressed similar support. I don't think this is entirely altruistic.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#47

Post by grumple »

Pigo wrote: post #8
atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

I've read reports of Target, and similar companies, cutting back hours of many employees. I take such reports as anecdotal, but I didn't catch them talking about this in the article at all.

So for these companies, it might make sense to hire more part-time employees and keep people under full-time if crossing that full-time threshold costs more.

In any case, jobs are created to fulfill a need. Companies don't just hire people in order to spend their new tax breaks or because they get to pay less - they do so to fulfill particular needs they have.

On the other hand, if a company was overstaffing due to being able to pay basically nothing, then sure, some minimum wage jobs may be lost. So the very worst-paying jobs might have been cut down slightly. But I'm doubting this is a major factor, as there's a lot of pressure to not overstaff no matter what wages are.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#48

Post by atypicality »

IshKebab wrote: post #28
atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

If their total pay isn't less that sounds pretty great!

Agreed. But that wasn't the end goal for the $15hour movement. The entire effort was touting 'living wage' so making the same take home check isn't helping anyone except for maybe less money spent on day care for their kids.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#49

Post by mdszy »

bassman9000 wrote: post #25
blunte wrote: post #20

This has been a long standing argument from a certain "trickle down" group in politics. And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong. The economy grows when people can afford to spend. (If this spending is based on credit as was largely the case during the Bill Clinton years, then there is a later cost to pay - no doubt.) But the fact remains that when people can…

What is not in doubt is that better paid workers means not quite as well paid executives. Something to back this, other than personal experience/opinion, would be nice. A = better paid workers B = better paid executives Your point seems to be that A => ¬B. Which, even if statistically accurate, seems a bit weird as a causation.

What possible reason could you have for writing it this way and not just saying "Your point seems to be that better paid workers leads to worse paid executives..."

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#50

Post by xyzzyz »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #19
darawk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

> Some businesses cannot be profitable and therefore will not exist at certain minimum wages, though. It's also worth noting that some businesses probably can't be profitable without chattel slavery, though it's hard to find examples since the practice has been illegal for so long. > The US minimum wage is a big part of why manufacturing jobs have moved out of the US, for instance. No. I'd say the bigger part of the…

> Americans would starve and die of exposure on those wages.

No, they wouldn’t. Americans survived on wages lower than that in the past. They would simply have to adjust their lifestyle to look more like the one of Bangladeshi —- unless you assume that Americans are somehow extremely inept compared to Bangladeshi.

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