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Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

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Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#111

Post by moltar »

gerbilly wrote: post #67
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.

It’s one thing to go to a conf and learn theory another thing to have first hand experience.

It’s like saying you can become a good programmer and have a good company culture by going to conferences.

It ain’t going to happen.

Once you have N years, and see and solve X problems you won’t be experienced.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#112

Post by MisterTea »

bumby wrote: post #87
hourislate wrote: post #85

In Canada general construction costs like home renovation/building are not that high. As soon as the government gets involved in a public construction/renovation project costs sky rocket. I can only attribute it to bureaucracy, corruption, and indifference since the tax payers pockets are endless. Contractors all have to be Unionized (good/bad?), it seems there is no urgency to do anything quickly or in a cost effect…

Alternate take: Large civil projects are more complex than home renovation projects and are thus less likely to be accurately assessed by our simple planning heuristics. (see "the planning fallacy"). Each gap in the actual vs. planned outcome requires change-orders that slow down schedules and cost more money. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/project-management/

It's what happens when there are many contractors involved, each intertwined in a complex relationship, each needing to schedule around each other and each with half a dozen sub contractors under them with the same complex requirements.

So 200 square ft of tile takes three months because the tilers are hired by the tiling company who is hired by the contractor hired to finish the walls who was hired by the main contractor who was hired by the construction company. Along this long chain someone schedules tiling on the same day the electricians are wiring up the lights. They reschedule and crew arrives only to find the materials are missing, no one knows who ordered them or who to talk to. Once they sort that out and get the materials delivered the project is put on hold because someone stubbed their toe on a box of tiles and a stop work order is issued. A safety inspector arrives with the cast of CSI miami to figure out who to blame. Meanwhile, while everyone is busy blaming each other, the tiling contractor steals the materials for another job and everything goes right back to square one. Now multiply this story by the number of individual items to be coordinated... All this while, the crew has to be paid for their time even though they couldn't work. Absolute madness.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#113

Post by quaquaqua1 »

tptacek wrote: post #110
mrep wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or visit then if you like some snow :) I'm currently in Seattle and I cannot wait to move back. Fortunately, my girlfriend gradates in 7 months and we are literally counting down the months until then so we can move back.

It's a great city. But there's lots not to like about living in a big city. I find NYC almost incredibly oppressive and confining and crazymaking, but I don't wonder why people love it; I also get why people move out to farms in Minnesota, even though I'd never do that myself. But you're not allowed to say that "the wind" is why you don't like Chicago. (Fair warning, I have our city's flag inked on my arm, so I may b…

Yeah I'm not referencing the wind in Chicago but rather the oppressive cold which is worse than most parts of the world with a population larger than x :)

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#114

Post by Akinato »

moltar wrote: post #111
gerbilly wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.

It’s one thing to go to a conf and learn theory another thing to have first hand experience. It’s like saying you can become a good programmer and have a good company culture by going to conferences. It ain’t going to happen. Once you have N years, and see and solve X problems you won’t be experienced.

A big thing about getting first hand experience is learning what questions you even need to ask!

When you first start, you don't even know what you don't know. All the conferences in the world aren't going to help you if you don't know which problems you need help solving.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#115

Post by mthoms »

cperciva wrote: post #41
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

- corruption, especially in QC If you think corruption is bad in Quebec, look at BC. One of the first things our current government did was to pass a law requiring that all government-funded construction must be performed by workers belonging to unions which donated to the governing party's last election campaign. A short time later, they changed the procurement rules from "lowest cost bid" to "best bid", with the ru…

>One of the first things our current government did was to pass a law requiring that all government-funded construction must be performed by workers belonging to unions which donated to the governing party's last election campaign

It's true that (a) workers must join a union when working on gov't projects and (b) The governing NDP is the "pro-union" party and thus, has received millions of donations from said unions.

The last part of what you wrote is worded poorly IMHO. Read literally, it seems to imply that donating to the party's campaign is part of the law itself. Which it isn't.

I agree, the effect is pretty much the same (due to (a) and (b) above) but I think it's important to clarify that point.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#116

Post by mthoms »

cperciva wrote: post #107
jacobush wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced it's because the unions are lining the coffers of the politicians. It's not like corporations are strangers to lobbying and influencing either. There have been many problems with non-union subcontractors skimping on workers protections, causing death and injury to workers. I don't know about the situation in Canada, but a few soundbites without data is not going to convince me "union bad", "big cons…

Is the situation clearer when you realize that it's only a subset of unions which are allowed to be involved with public construction contracts? The unions which didn't make "donations" have been shut out.

I'd be interested to learn more about this. Do you have a source? Thanks.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#117

Post by pvg »

tptacek wrote: post #110
mrep wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or visit then if you like some snow :) I'm currently in Seattle and I cannot wait to move back. Fortunately, my girlfriend gradates in 7 months and we are literally counting down the months until then so we can move back.

It's a great city. But there's lots not to like about living in a big city. I find NYC almost incredibly oppressive and confining and crazymaking, but I don't wonder why people love it; I also get why people move out to farms in Minnesota, even though I'd never do that myself. But you're not allowed to say that "the wind" is why you don't like Chicago. (Fair warning, I have our city's flag inked on my arm, so I may b…

Of course, Chicago's flag is actually a windsock.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#118

Post by magduf »

smabie wrote: post #59
altShiftDev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You name dropping one of the largest and most urbanized cities in the world proves what?

NYC doesn’t even make it in the top 10 biggest cities in the world. In fact NYC comes just behind Chengdu in 38th place. And in terms of density, NYC isn’t even in the top 50.

>And in terms of density, NYC isn’t even in the top 50.

I don't believe that. If you look at Manhattan alone, you'll see something very different. Unlike many other cities (particularly in the US, but also other places), NYC is basically a collection of cities. Manhattan is dense, but Staten Island is definitely not, so that drags down the average density. It's not fair to compare that with many other places.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#119

Post by thisguyuknow »

gerbilly wrote: post #67
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.

I can't not comment on this as well. Canada a realitively young country? I know they say don't be snarky, but what an arrogant, ignorant, very American thing to say. People have been building "infrastructure" everywhere in Canada for hundreds of years, just as they have in big brother USA.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#120

Post by snagglegaggle »

MisterTea wrote: post #112
bumby wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternate take: Large civil projects are more complex than home renovation projects and are thus less likely to be accurately assessed by our simple planning heuristics. (see "the planning fallacy"). Each gap in the actual vs. planned outcome requires change-orders that slow down schedules and cost more money. http://freakonomics.com/podcast/project-management/

It's what happens when there are many contractors involved, each intertwined in a complex relationship, each needing to schedule around each other and each with half a dozen sub contractors under them with the same complex requirements. So 200 square ft of tile takes three months because the tilers are hired by the tiling company who is hired by the contractor hired to finish the walls who was hired by the main contr…

Seems like laws need to be drawn up to make this unprofitable. It should be easy enough to get out of paying people standing around not behaving in a "competent and workmanlike manner." Or even the entire company. If it doesn't happen, why pay?

As you've described, what is going on is corruption due to lack of oversight.

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