Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#101

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

marcpaq wrote: post #84

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> - corruption, especially in QC Quebec removed a blindfold with the Charbonneau Commission. A sincere question: have other provinces done the same recently? What did they discover? > - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. How much does that add to a project that costs 9-10 di…

> How much does that add to a project that costs 9-10 digits?

Pretty sure "every road work site" cost a few digits less.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#102

Post by wyck » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

marcpaq wrote: post #84

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> - corruption, especially in QC Quebec removed a blindfold with the Charbonneau Commission. A sincere question: have other provinces done the same recently? What did they discover? > - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. How much does that add to a project that costs 9-10 di…

>Quebec removed a blindfold with the Charbonneau Commission.

Sorry to digaree but he Charbonneau Commission did very little, corruption is still a huge problem in QC, it's part of the culture ..like Italy.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#103

Post by wyck » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

FYI Canada has 3 engineering firms in the world top 10, SNC-Lavalin with 50k employees, WSP with 44k employees, and Stantec with 22k.

Lack of experience and expertise is not the issue.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#104

Post by mrep » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #100

magduf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Funny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. >Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times. Of course you'd like it, you're used to the place. The city is called "the windy city" for a reason, and is certainly not known to have weather resembling southern California. If you like it, that…

Just don't visit between November and March. The "Windy City" thing has little to do with our weather; winds are empirically worse in New York and San Francisco. If you have almost no experience with the city, it's easy to project and extrapolate from its nickname.

Or visit then if you like some snow :) I'm currently in Seattle and I cannot wait to move back. Fortunately, my girlfriend gradates in 7 months and we are literally counting down the months until then so we can move back.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#105

Post by nkrisc » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #95

nkrisc wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times.

>Funny. I grew up in the city and lived there for most of my adult life and never had any issues with any of those things. >Source: someone's who's spent more time in Chicago than someone's who's visited a handful of times. Of course you'd like it, you're used to the place. The city is called "the windy city" for a reason, and is certainly not known to have weather resembling southern California. If you like it, that…

The "Windy City" moniker comes from a reference to local politics, not the weather. In my personal experience Chicago is no more windy than any other place I've visited. Otherwise, as I heard from Norwegians, there is no bad weather, just bad clothes.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#106

Post by nasalgoat » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

I'm currently in the process of building a laneway suite building on my existing Toronto lot, which is typical of the city - 25 feet wide by 160 feet long. There's a driveway and a laneway at the back.

I spent two years and $25,000 to just get to the point of having building permits. The most egregious part was that I had to pay the city around $3,000 to cut down a tree on my own property, because due to a city bylaw, I did not own the tree, the city did, and I had to pay them for their "loss".

The bureaucratic nonsense and nickel and a dimeing people to death with multiple fees and taxes, added with the premium cost of materials, makes building far more expensive than it needs to be.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#107

Post by cperciva » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #96

cperciva wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not convinced that it's bad for the government to deliberately overpay for projects in order to funnel money into the pockets of its political donors?

I'm not convinced it's because the unions are lining the coffers of the politicians. It's not like corporations are strangers to lobbying and influencing either. There have been many problems with non-union subcontractors skimping on workers protections, causing death and injury to workers. I don't know about the situation in Canada, but a few soundbites without data is not going to convince me "union bad", "big cons…

Is the situation clearer when you realize that it's only a subset of unions which are allowed to be involved with public construction contracts? The unions which didn't make "donations" have been shut out.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#108

Post by jacobush » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #107

jacobush wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced it's because the unions are lining the coffers of the politicians. It's not like corporations are strangers to lobbying and influencing either. There have been many problems with non-union subcontractors skimping on workers protections, causing death and injury to workers. I don't know about the situation in Canada, but a few soundbites without data is not going to convince me "union bad", "big cons…

Is the situation clearer when you realize that it's only a subset of unions which are allowed to be involved with public construction contracts? The unions which didn't make "donations" have been shut out.

That is abhorrent.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#109

Post by MisterTea » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

blackearl wrote: post #88

OliverJones wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US State of Massachusetts, for what it's worth, also uses police officers to control and supervise traffic around all worksites involving streets or roads. These police details are paid by the organization doing the work. Condo developers, public utilities, and municipal public works departments all pay the same rates. This stuff is expensive. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars US during the Big Dig. Our loc…

You'll regularly see a those cops hanging out in front of a construction site (doing nothing) or sitting in their cars (doing nothing). They could just as effectively be replaced with an orange cone.

They certainly are needed. I was snared in late night construction traffic near Baltimore waiting for a crane to lift a beam. I was in the middle lane preparing to merge over and was at an angle along with another two guys in a car to our right from the right lane. Suddenly there's this beeping coming from a car that's trying to get between us. We then hear a young woman asking to let her pass. "Excuse me, can you please move?" My friend leans out the window and asks, "You can't pass, the road is blocked by construction" she again asks the same thing but a little distressed. My friend responds "Is everything okay? do you need help?" she just kept begging "please move we have to get through." The guys next to us again ask them "Do you need help?" The girl again begged for one of us to move this time nearly crying. The other driver responds "You can't pass. There's nowhere to go" The woman responds by leaning on the horn while inching up until she nearly hits the other car forcing him to pull off the road. She then speeds off into the very active construction zone. Within seconds, out of the darkness comes lights and sirens and gives chase.

About 30 minutes later when the lane opens we get about half a mile down the zone and saw that the cop was only able to stop this nut job after her path was blocked by machinery and materials. She was cuffed, sitting on the hood of her car completely zoned out. Her friend was still in the passenger seat. They couldn't have been older than 20. My money was on club/party drugs they couldn't handle and freaked out while waiting in traffic.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#110

Post by tptacek » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

mrep wrote: post #104

tptacek wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't visit between November and March. The "Windy City" thing has little to do with our weather; winds are empirically worse in New York and San Francisco. If you have almost no experience with the city, it's easy to project and extrapolate from its nickname.

Or visit then if you like some snow :) I'm currently in Seattle and I cannot wait to move back. Fortunately, my girlfriend gradates in 7 months and we are literally counting down the months until then so we can move back.

It's a great city. But there's lots not to like about living in a big city. I find NYC almost incredibly oppressive and confining and crazymaking, but I don't wonder why people love it; I also get why people move out to farms in Minnesota, even though I'd never do that myself.

But you're not allowed to say that "the wind" is why you don't like Chicago.

(Fair warning, I have our city's flag inked on my arm, so I may be a booster).