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The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

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Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#71

Post by riffraff »

ci5er wrote: post #46
the_duke wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a lot of discussions on Google Search quality lately on HN. (eg here: [1]) I wonder how much of the negative sentiment towards Google is partially motivated by subconscious dissatisfaction with their main product. I think I'm probably guilty of that. Others have mentioned that the web environment has changed a lot and I've come to agree. PageRank style algorithms are probably pretty useless in an era…

> Ironically, the thing I would appreciate most is a manually curated, Wikipedia inspired, hierarchical directory. Yahoo?

More like the now defunct DMOZ, I'd say.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#72

Post by riffraff »

mojuba wrote: post #40
Ygg2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your parallel between Microsoft and Google. To me, it also implies Google probably won't ever lose the search crown directly, the same way Microsoft never lost it's OS crown, to Linux or MacOS. However, Windows is dwarfed by the Android install base.

True but I think the parallel between Google and MS (of the 2000s) is more interesting in terms of the vital signs in their organization rather than on the product level. Because Windows was only improving from release to release, while Search is getting shittier and shittier (sorry, can't find a better word for at least my own frustration with using it today). So Search may in fact die a quick and sudden death at th…

Isn't Google making more and more money from non-search products? e.g. Google cloud products, YouTube.

It seems they are trying to differentiate, see also Google+, stadia etc, just not being very successful.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#73

Post by marcus_holmes »

mojuba wrote: post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

I'm refusing to implement Google Analytics on my startup's product. Because it's slow, but mainly because I don't trust Google enough to let them put whatever code they like on my page.

I'm running into serious flak from the marketing team because they don't know how to use any other tool. GA is the industry standard, apparently, and every site uses it, etc etc. They're even hinting that not using it could affect our SEO (I haven't seen any evidence for that, but if so it just reinforces my desire to not give Evil Google our traffic).

Even a couple of years ago, this wouldn't have been a problem. I trusted them to do the right thing. Now. No.

Google is the new M$

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#74

Post by dpflan »

mojuba wrote: post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

> "I think it is time (if not a bit too late) to try to challenge Google Search with something new, a new perspective on how the information on the Internet can be indexed and searched. I bet a lot of people are constantly thinking about this, but the window of opportunity may be now while Google is putting a lot of their time and effort on ML/AI. I doubt you can compete with them by building a ML-based search, so it must be something else both in terms of technology and possibly even the UI."

There was a social search engine, Aardvark (circa 2008). Google acquired it in 2010, then discontinued it off in 2011. The design is discussed in their paper below. There was also ChaCha -- another social search engine.

> Aardbark wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark_(search_engine)

> "The Anatomy of a Large-Scale, Social, Search Engine": https://web.archive.org/web/20110216155450/http://vark.com/a...

_

=== Update ===

I've found some HN posts about Aardvark and the acquisition:

> Aardvark: Now All Your Friends Are in the Answer Business: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=677178

> Aardvark Mulls Over A $30+ Million Offer From Google: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=980607

> Google Acquires Aardvark For $50 million: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1118132

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#75

Post by Kye »

roenxi wrote: post #53
kgersen75 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

People who think carefully then call Google 'evil' may as well be the same people who used to call it 'good'. Corporations aren't good or evil. They are powerful. Being good is many things, but a key part of that is restraining the self from acting improperly. Corporations can't do that, they will sooner or later do whatever makes money. Or they get replaced sooner or later by a corporation that will. At best, there…

How about insidious? It's the banal sort of evil that doesn't realize the harm it's causing, or doesn't see a way to survive without causing that harm.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#76

Post by mojuba »

riffraff wrote: post #72
mojuba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but I think the parallel between Google and MS (of the 2000s) is more interesting in terms of the vital signs in their organization rather than on the product level. Because Windows was only improving from release to release, while Search is getting shittier and shittier (sorry, can't find a better word for at least my own frustration with using it today). So Search may in fact die a quick and sudden death at th…

Isn't Google making more and more money from non-search products? e.g. Google cloud products, YouTube. It seems they are trying to differentiate, see also Google+, stadia etc, just not being very successful.

Doesn't seem to be the case [1] The article that comments on this chart says other sources (non-ad ones) look promising but it more sounds like a speculation because I don't see real signs of that.

[1] https://www.theatlas.com/charts/n8ea9MPE0

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#77

Post by daodedickinson »

mojuba wrote: post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

The tech industry should not take it too personally / hard: any forces that earn prestige will soon become surrounded by similar challengers

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#79

Post by faeyanpiraat »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #73
mojuba wrote: post #33

In addition, what's changed between 2017 and now is that back then Google was still admired by the tech people. "Google is evil" sounded ridiculous only a few years ago. I've been ridiculed by my colleagues and fellow engineers every time I said it. But I think it began to change with the introduction of AMP, a growing list of products discontinued for no apparent reason, failures of some of the new products often pr…

I'm refusing to implement Google Analytics on my startup's product. Because it's slow, but mainly because I don't trust Google enough to let them put whatever code they like on my page. I'm running into serious flak from the marketing team because they don't know how to use any other tool. GA is the industry standard, apparently, and every site uses it, etc etc. They're even hinting that not using it could affect our…

Oblivious marketing ppl bullying tech guys into doing stupid things. Such a classic.

Unfortunately I have a hunch aswell that not adding GA does indeed negatively affects SEO.

How would it be possible to prove/disprove this?

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#80

Post by mojuba »

faeyanpiraat wrote: post #79
marcus_holmes wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm refusing to implement Google Analytics on my startup's product. Because it's slow, but mainly because I don't trust Google enough to let them put whatever code they like on my page. I'm running into serious flak from the marketing team because they don't know how to use any other tool. GA is the industry standard, apparently, and every site uses it, etc etc. They're even hinting that not using it could affect our…

Oblivious marketing ppl bullying tech guys into doing stupid things. Such a classic. Unfortunately I have a hunch aswell that not adding GA does indeed negatively affects SEO. How would it be possible to prove/disprove this?

Experiment with your own web sites? Create two of them with and without GA, possibly with different content because Google seems to be able to detect duplication, then try to promote both (this is the difficult part of course) and compare.
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