Live data from Hacker News

Phoebus Cartel

en.wikipedia.org

111–120 of 126 posts

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#111
post #14

Related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence I would argue that the current economic system does not plan for maximum longevity of products. Rather it can be more profitable for an manufacturer for planned obsolescence or simply make products which does not last that long. As long as they do not get caught that is.

>I would argue that the current economic system does not plan for maximum longevity of products.

Of course not. And you don't want that. If you want quality, you can get quality but you'll have to pay for it. Are you willing to pay $500 for a quality drill, when a cheapo $40 drill is all you need? What's wrong with that?

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#112
post #84
post #3

Today, another halogen lightbulb failed at my house. These are the very unreliable replacements for incandescent bulbs as mandated by the EU.

Halogens burn out quickly, I think it's because they run too hot. I had a bunch of them in my previous apartment, and had to replace a bulb every few months or so. There were even dark marks on the ceiling from the heat.

> Halogens burn out quickly

No, they don't, they last about twice as long as normal incandescents.

> I had a bunch of them in my previous apartment, and had to replace a bulb every few months or so.

Which says nothing. How long did they last? And did you compare to normal incandescents in the same appartment? Some places have increased mains voltage that just causes bulbs to burn out faster. BTW a problem that you can avoid with high-quality LEDs.

> There were even dark marks on the ceiling from the heat.

Well, possibly there was, but the solution to that is CFL or LEDs, not normal incandescents, because those produce even more heat. Halogen are more efficient because they run the filament hotter, but therefore the amount of heat they give off is lower (lower wattage for the same amount of light, plus higher proportion of that is converted to light instead of heat).

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#113
post #59
post #3

Today, another halogen lightbulb failed at my house. These are the very unreliable replacements for incandescent bulbs as mandated by the EU.

The incandescent light bulb ban is one of those things that can still get me fired up a decade later. The idea that LEDs are now cheap, or cheaper seems like a tough argument. 4 packs of Phillips 40 or 60 watts used to be sold at the dollar store. $.25 cents per bulb. Or any hardware store had them for $1.19. Home depot currently has LED bulbs for 1.25 per bulb, 5x the price, IF you buy in bulk. 1.75 (7x the price) p…

> 4 packs of Phillips 40 or 60 watts used to be sold at the dollar store. $.25 cents per bulb. Or any hardware store had them for $1.19. Home depot currently has LED bulbs for 1.25 per bulb, 5x the price, IF you buy in bulk. 1.75 (7x the price) per bulb if you don't buy in bulk.

Which is a nonsensical comparison, given that (good) LED lamps (which you can get at around that price) not only save a ton of energy, but also last a lot longer. Those 1.75 give you the same amount of light over their lifetime as 2.50 worth of incandescents you buy in bulk, so it's already cheaper even if you ignore the energy savings.

> Maybe if you spend money to buy in bulk then 2 years down the road you will be financially better off than if you bought incandescent bulbs.

Suppose you are a poor family. An incandescent light bulb fails. What do you do? Well, you move the bulb from your most-used lamp to the one where the bulb failed. Then, you buy a single LED bulb for 1.75 and put it in that most-used lamp. Assuming your typical household, your most-used lamp probably is a "60 W" lamp that gets at least 3 hours of use per day.

The replacement LED with the same light output uses about 8 W, possibly less. At 52 W less power consumption, that means that at (1.75 - 1) / .1 / (52 / 1000) = 144 hours of use, or about 48 days, they have already saved the 75 cents that they paid above the price for the four-pack of incandescents. Another 108 days later, they have saved another 1.75 in energy costs, so now they can buy the next LED without exceeding the total cost of 1 dollar.

So, yes, you have to be able to invest an additional 75 cents for less than two months in order to be able to switch over to LEDs. I am not saying that that can't be a problem for some, but you are sure way overblowing the scale of it.

In the long run, every single LED you buy saves you around 50 bucks total (replacement and energy costs), so once you have managed to come up with that 75 cent investment capital at the start it's about the best thing you can do if you are poor, and in no time you will be able to buy LEDs in bulk, too. Except, of course, that doesn't really make much sense because they last so long, so you are probably better of buying single bulbs when you need them, because they only get cheaper and more efficient. An incandescent bulb that you changed once a year you won't need to change for the next ten years if you switch to LEDs.

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#114

I live in Eindhoven, home town of Philips, one of the members of this cartel. Philips is extremely loved here. They're the reason this city is a city at all, they're the reason we're a prosperous region with of lots of innovation (mostly hardware though, so not very HN-fashionable). We now have apartment buildings named after their founders ("Gerard", "Anton", etc), lunchrooms ("Meneer Frits"), the local football sta…

You basically described what's wrong with caputalism in general. And I agree. Everybody shits their pants when there is a statue erected for the big leader but somehow noon really seems to care about the impact of big Corp to the same effect which is EXTREMELY troubling

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#115
post #82
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fixed battery increase the overall durability and reduces materials over a design where there was a compartment that could be opened. > Apple does battery replacements in expensively relative to the cost of the device, and they supply batteries to 3rd party repair shops. How long does such a replacement take, and why would someone need to leave their phone in the hands of a third party in the first place? Back…

Last time I had it done with my current phone, it was done in less than 15 minutes. Extra materials are not negligible - at the scale of the iPhone, even 1% of additional material is vast. In any case, is not only the extra materials that are the problem, it is that phones with a battery compartment are much more fragile, harder to waterproof, etc, and so they fail sooner anyway regardless of whether the battery is c…

> People discarding otherwise serviceable phones because they have been misinformed about the ease of battery replacement is the real problem.

When you spend 100% of your time in a technical field, and deal with people who are technically savvy, you think everybody is capable of "easily" replacing a battery, or knowing that it can be done relatively easy.

There are millions of people who are completely unaware that getting your battery replaced is an easy thing for someone who knows how to do it. What do most non-technical people do when their iphone battery starts dying a lot faster? They don't google, "iphone battery repair" or look for a local repair shop to do this, they take it right back to the Apple store. What do you think the Apple store employee is going to tell them? "Hey this battery is dead, you should probably just upgrade the phone."

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#116
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incandescent light bulb ban is one of those things that can still get me fired up a decade later. The idea that LEDs are now cheap, or cheaper seems like a tough argument. 4 packs of Phillips 40 or 60 watts used to be sold at the dollar store. $.25 cents per bulb. Or any hardware store had them for $1.19. Home depot currently has LED bulbs for 1.25 per bulb, 5x the price, IF you buy in bulk. 1.75 (7x the price) p…

> 4 packs of Phillips 40 or 60 watts used to be sold at the dollar store. $.25 cents per bulb. Or any hardware store had them for $1.19. Home depot currently has LED bulbs for 1.25 per bulb, 5x the price, IF you buy in bulk. 1.75 (7x the price) per bulb if you don't buy in bulk. Which is a nonsensical comparison, given that (good) LED lamps (which you can get at around that price) not only save a ton of energy, but a…

Wow, you used a lot math, I mostly made up my numbers and then made guesstimates based on those. :) $50 saving per bulb- holy shintos!

I concede, in most climates and most use-cases LEDs are a better buy. Most of my overhead lights are LED bulbs. I am not anti-LED or an LED-denier!

The whole thing just seems bizarre, even years later. Light bulbs are a small part of household electricity usage- water heater, heating/cooling, appliances, etc take more energy. Household electricity is a small part of all energy use- changes in industrial and transportation would have a bigger impact. While light bulbs represent a tiny fraction of overall power consumption they are probably the most visible and commonly used/purchased item. As a general rule it doesn't make sense to target areas that will cause the most disruption, to the most people to provide the smallest impact- if there has been any impact at all. Has anybody measured the impact? I tried to search for results of the ban but didn't really find anything meaningful. Has household electricity/ft2 usage dropped?

I would be curious if electricity usage did not drop at all. "oh it is an LED and is efficient so I will leave it on all day" I am sure there is a name for the effect/paradox. As far as I know impact wasn't measured. Is it another, "we did something, pat on the back" projects with no meaningful improvements?

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#117
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android updates are another good example.

But they aren't. There are commercial reasons why updates are limited to two years. It's not great, but it's not the same.

Why not? "commercial reasons" for not supporting a device with updates is planned obsolescence. You (as a device manufacturer) plan to release a new model, so you try to make the old one obsolete.

Now given, the device might not stop working immediateley, or maybe never. The issue is that without updates your device might join a botnet.

There are ways around it. After you supported your device for the mini time that is 2 years (even if). Release ALL your sourcecode for that device.

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#118

I live in Eindhoven, home town of Philips, one of the members of this cartel. Philips is extremely loved here. They're the reason this city is a city at all, they're the reason we're a prosperous region with of lots of innovation (mostly hardware though, so not very HN-fashionable). We now have apartment buildings named after their founders ("Gerard", "Anton", etc), lunchrooms ("Meneer Frits"), the local football sta…

You basically described what's wrong with caputalism in general. And I agree. Everybody shits their pants when there is a statue erected for the big leader but somehow noon really seems to care about the impact of big Corp to the same effect which is EXTREMELY troubling

Oh come on. I'll take Philips-built Eindhoven over a similarly sized city in Turkmenistan any day. Plenty corporations are run by crooks but few people in capitalist democracies are afraid that they (or their loved ones) could suddenly disappear without a trace.

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#119

I live in Eindhoven, home town of Philips, one of the members of this cartel. Philips is extremely loved here. They're the reason this city is a city at all, they're the reason we're a prosperous region with of lots of innovation (mostly hardware though, so not very HN-fashionable). We now have apartment buildings named after their founders ("Gerard", "Anton", etc), lunchrooms ("Meneer Frits"), the local football sta…

You basically described what's wrong with caputalism in general. And I agree. Everybody shits their pants when there is a statue erected for the big leader but somehow noon really seems to care about the impact of big Corp to the same effect which is EXTREMELY troubling

Can't mention someone doing something bad without someone coming out of the woodwork shouting CAPITALISM!!1. Don't you have a breadline to stand in?

Re: Phoebus Cartel

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4 packs of Phillips 40 or 60 watts used to be sold at the dollar store. $.25 cents per bulb. Or any hardware store had them for $1.19. Home depot currently has LED bulbs for 1.25 per bulb, 5x the price, IF you buy in bulk. 1.75 (7x the price) per bulb if you don't buy in bulk. Which is a nonsensical comparison, given that (good) LED lamps (which you can get at around that price) not only save a ton of energy, but a…

Wow, you used a lot math, I mostly made up my numbers and then made guesstimates based on those. :) $50 saving per bulb- holy shintos! I concede, in most climates and most use-cases LEDs are a better buy. Most of my overhead lights are LED bulbs. I am not anti-LED or an LED-denier! The whole thing just seems bizarre, even years later. Light bulbs are a small part of household electricity usage- water heater, heating/…

> $50 saving per bulb- holy shintos!

... and that's with your cheap US electricity prices!

> Light bulbs are a small part of household electricity usage- water heater, heating/cooling, appliances, etc take more energy.

Well, that really depends on where you live, though. Here in Germany, heating mostly uses natural gas and oil, and AC is uncommon in homes, so lighting is a bigger percentage of electricity use. And potentially also of energy use, because heating with electricity is way less efficient than burning the fuel in your home in terms of primary energy use.

But also, you just have to take the efficiency gains that you can get, and that one was, overall, an easy one to get. If heating is 90% of your electricity use, but you have no way to make that more efficient, it's of no use that it's 90% of your electricity use. Lighting was overall easy to do, plus it didn't even cost anything, but rather saves everyone a not that insignificant amount of money now. Plus, for the migration to renewable energy, the efficiency of lighting is more important than the efficiency of other energy uses: You only need AC when the sun is shining and thus solar power is available, while you need lighting when the sun is down, and people generally want to be able to switch on light whenever they feel like it, while most bigger consumers of electric energy can deal relatively well with shifting their load profile: You can stop charging your car, or heating your house, or cooling your fridge, or washing your clothes for an hour of high demand/low availability without any impact on usability, but just shutting off all lights isn't really an option.

> changes in industrial and transportation would have a bigger impact

Well, maybe, but at what cost? It's trivial to have a "bigger impact" if you have infinite resources to spend. The interesting question is how much impact you can have per investment, and one that gives you a 50 bucks return on every dollar invested (or so) is pretty good based on that measure.

> As a general rule it doesn't make sense to target areas that will cause the most disruption

Except ... this didn't cause any disruption? You had good lighting options available all the way, the migration to LEDs was to be expected, and now everyone is saving money. Where is the disruption in that?

> I would be curious if electricity usage did not drop at all.

Chances are it didn't, but that's simply because people have more devices that use electricity now. I.e.: It would have risen if not for LEDs. But then, the switch to LEDs, while most visible, is not the only thing that's going on, the EU at least also has regulation on the efficiency and standby consumption of power supplies now, which also reduces energy consumption of new devices (or old ones, if you swap out the power supply).

> "oh it is an LED and is efficient so I will leave it on all day" I am sure there is a name for the effect/paradox.

I think "rebound effect" is the term, and I suspect there's probably some of that. But then, it's an about 8-fold increase in efficiency, so it's not that easy to use up again. I am pretty sure people don't use more than eight times the light now than before, and if they use twice as much, it's still clearly a win.

> As far as I know impact wasn't measured.

Well, it's probably difficult to do so, to any degree of accuracy, so possibly not. But it seems very unlikely that it was useless.

Post reply on HN