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This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

economist.com

41–50 of 135 posts

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#41
post #21

These critics should spend some time speaking to the medical research community. These aren't new questions. It kinda reveals the deep underlying assumptions; "of course we can know the results of these interventions in advance, so we must base our ethics on that"... ok, but if you already know the effects, why are you testing them? You're testing them because you don't know. Unfortunately, there's no royal road to s…

"One day when I was a junior medical student, a very important Boston surgeon visited the school and delivered a great treatise on a large number of patients who had undergone successful operations for vascular reconstruction.

At the end of the lecture, a young student at the back of the room timidly asked, “Do you have any controls?” Well, the great surgeon drew himself up to his full height, hit the desk, and said, “Do you mean did I not operate on half the patients?” The hall grew very quiet then. The voice at the back of the room very hesitantly replied, “Yes, that’s what I had in mind.” Then the visitor’s fist really came down as he thundered, “Of course not. That would have doomed half of them to their death.”

God, it was quiet then, and one could scarcely hear the small voice ask, “Which half?”

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#42
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are exactly correct. RCTs are hard, not just for ethical reasons but also logistical ones. It's hard to get the money and authority to conduct an experiment in the first place, and it's often impossible to create a true control group. "Hard" scientists like to pat themselves on the back for rigor, but they get that because they're studying comparatively simple things. Studying the lives of people is hard, but it'…

> It's a bit like medicine: we're not going to stop treating people just because we don't understand the mechanism of action and can't guarantee that it will work. Yet medicine actually focuses on scientific measurement of effects. They don’t just throw their hands up and go, “experiments that affect people’s lives are too hard.”

Except there is a direct, causal link between treatment and life and death, or at least quality of life.

Economic or social studies are a lot more nebulous.

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#44
post #9

Worth noting that The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is not an actual Nobel Prize. It was established by a central bank so they could award people who justify the existence of central banks.

No, not really worth noting.

Well, it's also manipulative. It wasn't created by Alfred Nobel but the Nobel Foundation does refer to it as a Nobel prize: https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#45

Though I know the Nobel is focused on theoretical contribution, I found this discussion interesting: https://andrewbatson.com/2019/10/25/who-deserves-the-nobel-f... The editorial Batson is reacting to (by Yao Yang) makes the point that the largest economic development project that lifted the vast majority of people out of poverty over the past 20 years was orchestrated by China, and the RCTs/small scale interventions…

RCT? Perhaps it would be helpful to explain what that is.

It's in the second paragraph of the article

> The prize, awarded in early October, recognised the laureates’ efforts to use randomised controlled trials (RCTs) to answer social-science questions.

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really worth noting.

Well, it's also manipulative. It wasn't created by Alfred Nobel but the Nobel Foundation does refer to it as a Nobel prize: https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/

Economics already existed when Nobel died. It's not an oversight that there is no Nobel prize in economics, he didn't consider it a science worth a Nobel prize. That's why his family still tries to get his name off the Riksbank prize.

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#47
post #21

These critics should spend some time speaking to the medical research community. These aren't new questions. It kinda reveals the deep underlying assumptions; "of course we can know the results of these interventions in advance, so we must base our ethics on that"... ok, but if you already know the effects, why are you testing them? You're testing them because you don't know. Unfortunately, there's no royal road to s…

> These critics should spend some time speaking to the medical research community. These aren't new questions.

There is a really brutal dynamic involved. It is hard to be uncertain and make a decision. However, when dealing with problems more complicated than assembling a sandwich, it is nigh impossible to be certain about anything.

We all know software so here is a software example - if I walk up to a new computer, fire up a web browser and go to news.ycombinator.com, will it work? Probably, but there are many things that could go wrong - configuration, hardware, new bugs, old bugs, etc. But I can't afford to worry about any of that because I only have 8 hours in a day and I have to just assume it will work out. Usually it does. If it doesn't, then I start exploring what the system is doing and why.

But this happens with everything and quietly trains people to approach complicated situations with great confidence and pick up the pieces if (and only if) someone or something flags that there is a problem. This approach doesn't work for policy but there is a constant influx of people who think this way getting into positions of power and making policy decisions.

It is a fact that these questions of evidence are well known and indeed ancient, but there is constant and heavy pressure on culture to backslide and stop accepting that there is uncertainty that needs to be controlled. Making decisions while being uncertain is hard and by-and-large has to be learned. Even learning it as a skill is hard because it is about how we behave more than about what we know. Figuring out how to embed those behaviours at culturally at scale is a component why the Enlightenment was a big deal.

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#49
post #48

Economics continues to try and reinvent itself. I’m curious how the example of an RCT in deworming schedules for children counts as Economics. This seems like a field in its death throes. Nobels for ‘credibility research’?

The effect size of an intervention (deworming) on a measured outcome (test scores) is, almost by definition, its efficiency. And that's within economic's wheelhouse if you're studying paper clip manufacturing or schools.

But, ultimately, I think the researchers would probably answer with something closer to "I don't care if it's economics. I consider it both interesting and relevant", and so would the Nobel judges.

Re: This year’s Nobel prizes prompt soul-searching among economists

#50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you not? I don't even like philosophy, and I wouldn't assume they're just publishing nonsense.

Because of a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.

Worth noting that Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity was not publishing in a philosophy journal. It was published in a litcrit journal which is a very distinct discipline.
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