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Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

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Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#111
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not dodgy, it’s capitalism. And thanks to this downward pricing pressure, we enjoy a lot of luxuries today at prices the masses can afford. If someone can make an Allbirds shoe for $5 that is basically 95% identical as the real thing then the consumer has won.

This is an opinion, not a fact. It's not at all clear that design theft actually leads to better goods at lower prices. It is at least as valid and interpretation that design theft changes the coarse shape by parasitical copying of designer's work, without changing the quality.

Being an opinion doesn’t make it untrue.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, it seems like you're referring to software. I'm commenting solely on their retail business (and that's what the linked article is about).

The 50,000+ items are physical things across their many brands, they're facing an antitrust action in the EU for the possibility sales data is the deciding factor for what to copy. http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-19-4291_en.htm

FWIW, every major retailer can use the exact same data about in-store sales to determine which products to private label.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#113
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an opinion, not a fact. It's not at all clear that design theft actually leads to better goods at lower prices. It is at least as valid and interpretation that design theft changes the coarse shape by parasitical copying of designer's work, without changing the quality.

Being an opinion doesn’t make it untrue.

Being an opinion means you need to provide evidence if you expect rational folks to listen.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#114

If you can't succeed because somebody made a low effort, low quality copy of your product, then you don't deserve to make money. Especially in light of the fact that Coke has been around for 150 years and is essentially just sugar water.

This is a very simplistic view. (a) Patent litigations can cost a lot of money, and small companies might not be able to fight big ones. (b) Some products are more easily patentable than others. The current situation is definitely not great for innovation or creativity.

Most companies build a moat with something other than patents. Brand, scale, distribution networks, etc.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its funny because folks are arguing in this very same thread that we're also not allowed to hate the game, as they raise the hypothesis that capitalism makes "better goods cheaper". As in Basketball, there are things which are technically legal but will get your ass kicked if you keep doing them in a street game. Folks should be mad about design theft and they should do their best to buy goods that are quality and me…

You're shifting the goalposts. Presenting misinformation to consumers is generally illegal, and is also a completely separate concern from copying and building off of others' innovations. I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. A common misconception creatives tend to have abo…

> I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original.

Except copying someone else's design and presenting it as your own is literally that infraction? Asymmetrical capitalization and the cost of the legal system means that capitalized companies are much more capable of design theft.

And of course, this ignores whole industries that exist by getting others to lie for them and then simply speak misleadingly (e.g., chiropractors).

> A common misconception creatives tend to have about business is that it's 100% about crafting a unique and/or valuable product or service. It's not. There are innovations and competitive advantages one can have in distribution, sales, branding, pricing, and many other areas.

A common misconception that business people have is that there is anything to optimize without a product or service around which to optimize. There isn't. When said business types lose the forest for the trees and see money as more valuable than the goods and services it is supposed to proxy for, we end up with the current situation and people in this thread arguing that somehow design theft is okay because it was executed efficiently.

> Some products are naturally defensible (e.g. the network effects of a social network) and some are protected by copyright and other laws (e.g. writing, photos, and logos, but not clothing or, in this case, shoe design), but the vast majority are wide open to competition, and it's your job as a business owner to either figure it out or avoid those industries.

What are you actually saying with this paragraph? Thar Allbirds should take Amazon to court over copyright infringement? Or design patents?

It's too bad you feel that we're not allowed as consumers to dislike or even consider the business practices of where our products come from. That would be a useful and informative thing to consider, especially in a world where some capitalist institutions are responsible for a significant fraction of the ongoing process of very literally threatening the survival of the human race.

But no. Efficient theft is moral because it costs the consumer less.

> You aren't automatically entitled to overall business success just because you were the first to do X or you worked the hardest on it. Doesn't matter if it's wool shoes, v-neck shirts, autotune in your music, customer support chat widgets, a mobile operating system, or like buttons in your social app.

Hard work is meaningless, only capitalization matters. Got it. This system is great.

> Just because you're a designer who likes designing and works hard at it doesn't make design a defensible business strategy in your industry.

Is this addressed to me? I'm not "a designer."

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're shifting the goalposts. Presenting misinformation to consumers is generally illegal, and is also a completely separate concern from copying and building off of others' innovations. I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. A common misconception creatives tend to have abo…

> I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. Except copying someone else's design and presenting it as your own is literally that infraction? Asymmetrical capitalization and the cost of the legal system means that capitalized companies are much more capable of design theft. And o…

>Hard work is meaningless, only capitalization matters. Got it. This system is great.

Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part) how many times you iterated on design or process or business model or whatever to come up with your product. It may well be a necessary ingredient in many/most cases. But I'm likely not buying your product over a cheaper/better/etc. competitor because you put in more blood/sweat/tears.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#117
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. Except copying someone else's design and presenting it as your own is literally that infraction? Asymmetrical capitalization and the cost of the legal system means that capitalized companies are much more capable of design theft. And o…

>Hard work is meaningless, only capitalization matters. Got it. This system is great. Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part) how many times you iterated on design or process or business model or whatever to come up with your product. It may well be a necessary ingredient in many/most cases. But I'm likely not buying your product over a cheaper/better/e…

> Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part)

I'd argue the ongoing direction of consumer advertising suggests that you're not as craft-agnostic as you claim "as a consumer." Everyone's brands are trying to connect with human experience and human effort, and an appeal to human problems. Even computer motherboard advertisements have a funny tendency to omit the spec sheet and the price and focus on what they let you do and how they're different.

And then there are companies like Apple.

> But may well be a necessary ingredient in many/most cases. But I'm likely not buying your product over a cheaper/better/etc. competitor because you put in more blood/sweat/tears.

Again, I'm not sure this is true. But the idea that "hard work is meaningless" fundamentally ignores that the basis of an economy is goods and services, not money. Without those goods and services, which are essentially the definition of hard work, every other aspect of the business would be meaningless.

So at some level, hard work must matter. And if it didn't, why are companies copying the designs? Can't they just scribble something on a default shoe and call it a day?

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're shifting the goalposts. Presenting misinformation to consumers is generally illegal, and is also a completely separate concern from copying and building off of others' innovations. I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. A common misconception creatives tend to have abo…

> I haven't seen any comments here that support outright tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff when they were looking for a higher-quality original. Except copying someone else's design and presenting it as your own is literally that infraction? Asymmetrical capitalization and the cost of the legal system means that capitalized companies are much more capable of design theft. And o…

> Except copying someone else's design and presenting it as your own is literally that infraction?

No, it's different. The infraction in question would be, say, copying a Rolex watch and putting "Rolex" on it. In that case, the copier would not be presenting it as their own. They'd be presenting it as a Rolex, in order to fool people into buying their knockoff.

If one were to instead copy the design of a Rolex watch, then put their own company's name on the face, it would be wholly inaccurate to describe this as "tricking unsuspecting customers into accidentally buying a cheap knockoff," since any customers who are shopping for the original Rolex brand would (by definition) be aware of the Rolex brand name.

> We end up with the current situation and people in this thread arguing that somehow design theft is okay because it was executed efficiently.

You continue to say "design theft," presumably to make the case that it is an axiomatically wrong thing do. The reality is that this is not theft. Theft has a very particular definition, and is wrong because it it deprives the victim of an actual good or item that was in their position.

What's actually happening is not theft but "copying," which is in no way axiomatically wrong, and is instead the very mechanism by which humanity has grown and thrived, as it is a necessary component of innovation. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" and all that.

There are specific instances of copying that we've outlawed for purely utilitarian purposes. This is copyright/patent/trademark law, which again, is wholly separate from theft, both in denotation and morally. And even copyright infringement doesn't apply here, because as far as I'm aware, there are no copyright laws protecting the design of a shoe.

I'm not an expert, but I'd guess at most we're dealing with potential trade dress infractions here, and even that's arguable.

> What are you actually saying with this paragraph? That Allbirds should take Amazon to court over copyright infringement? Or design patents?

If Amazon is violating the law, sure. If not, that's Allbirds' problem to solve with whatever business strategy they choose. Why wouldn't it be? Are they entitled to business success?

If Allbirds' product and business is truly more appealing, and that matters to consumers, they'll choose Allbirds. However, if people don't care about the things Allbirds thinks they care about, then Allbirds will suffer and competitors who better cater to actual consumer desires will thrive. As it should be.

> It's too bad you feel that we're not allowed as consumers to dislike or even consider the business practices of where our products come from.

Where did I say you shouldn't be allowed to do that? You can vocalize support for whoever you want. You can also vote with your dollars by shopping at your favorite companies.

If consumers like Allbirds more than Amazon's shoes, there's nothing stopping them from buying Allbirds. I happen to like Allbirds' sustainable approach, personally, even though I don't buy their shoes.

But they are not entitled to win the market just because they were first, and their case against Amazon is a business challenge to be surmounted, not a legitimate moral issue.

> But no. Efficient theft is moral because it costs the consumer less.

Again, it's not theft, and it's not immoral.

> Hard work is meaningless

Yes, if we're talking about how the market rewards companies and creators, hard work is meaningless. Why should it be otherwise?

The point of capitalism is to incentivize us to provide value to others, not to incentivize us to work hard for its own sake. Hard work is merely a means (sometimes an optional one) to an end, and provides no direct value to consumers itself.

"Person X works hard, therefore they should be paid more" is another very common misconception about how the market operates. Intuitively, that makes sense on a personal, familial, or tribal level. We want to show appreciation for the people we interact with. But those personal relationships are not analogous to how the market does or should reward people.

> Is this addressed to me?

No, I meant the figurative "you" aka "one" or "someone."

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#119
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hard work is meaningless, only capitalization matters. Got it. This system is great. Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part) how many times you iterated on design or process or business model or whatever to come up with your product. It may well be a necessary ingredient in many/most cases. But I'm likely not buying your product over a cheaper/better/e…

> Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part) I'd argue the ongoing direction of consumer advertising suggests that you're not as craft-agnostic as you claim "as a consumer." Everyone's brands are trying to connect with human experience and human effort, and an appeal to human problems. Even computer motherboard advertisements have a funny tendency to omit…

> So at some level, hard work must matter. And if it didn't, why are companies copying the designs? Can't they just scribble something on a default shoe and call it a day?

You're confusing inputs with outputs, processes with results. Hard work is a process that may lead to a quality final result. But consumers don't pay for the process. They pay for the result.

Re: Allbirds CEO on Amazon's copycat strategy

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard work by itself IS pretty much is meaningless. As a consumer I really don't care (for the most part) I'd argue the ongoing direction of consumer advertising suggests that you're not as craft-agnostic as you claim "as a consumer." Everyone's brands are trying to connect with human experience and human effort, and an appeal to human problems. Even computer motherboard advertisements have a funny tendency to omit…

> So at some level, hard work must matter. And if it didn't, why are companies copying the designs? Can't they just scribble something on a default shoe and call it a day? You're confusing inputs with outputs, processes with results. Hard work is a process that may lead to a quality final result. But consumers don't pay for the process. They pay for the result.

They absolutely pay for the process. Without huge capital asymmetries, price competition actually works and the underlying costs actually set the floor of the market. It's a much more sane system.

It's when we decide that design theft is defensible because it creates inferior, copycat goods that are cheaper, and that's somehow been defined as laudable progress by you in this thread.

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