Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil." • Hacker News Board

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#21

Post by comatose_kid » Sat, May 12, 2007, 5:19 AM UTC

gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

paul wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?

I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?

Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail....

Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310

There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode:

http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf

An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke. Actually, for telling two jokes."

I guess on second thought you are absolutely correct. These people weren't jailed in gitmo for their political beliefs after all - they just landed there because the US govt decided to listen to some random guy who was upset at being the target of their humor.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#22

Post by gibsonf1 » Sat, May 12, 2007, 10:30 AM UTC

comatose_kid wrote: post #21

gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?

Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were impri…

Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons.

Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which they are not, it would not make what Google is doing any better. What Google is doing is directly aiding in the political prosecution of people in China, and nothing makes this right.

I think I've said now more than enough, and so I withdraw from this thread.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#23

Post by lupin_sansei » Sat, May 12, 2007, 1:54 PM UTC

gibsonf1 wrote: post #19

nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip bac…

You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be…

"Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The difference is in kind, not degree"

Well said. Democracies like the US and Japan and Europe have orders of magnitude more freedom than dictatorships. It's popular to see a moral equivalence between dictatorships and democracies, but history doesn't see an equivalence.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#24

Post by lupin_sansei » Sat, May 12, 2007, 1:55 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #17

gibsonf1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not…

I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip bac…

Here's a little experiment you could carry out to see which society is more of a police state. Take a soapbox into a popular park or square on a Sunday afternoon and start denouncing the government in public. See how long you would last in China.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#25

Post by lupin_sansei » Sat, May 12, 2007, 1:57 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #17

gibsonf1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not…

I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip bac…

"Chinese people can and do criticize their government all they want - verbally. Several people we met told us "Yeah, the government censorship is disgraceful, but it takes time to change things like that." When we visited a Taoist temple in Hong Kong, there were Falun Gong posters all over the place."

Hong Kong currently has different laws to mainland China.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#26

Post by lupin_sansei » Sat, May 12, 2007, 2:04 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #17

gibsonf1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not…

I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip bac…

"China's certainly not perfect, and overall I think its political freedom is somewhat less than the U.S."

Somewhat less? Freedom House gives the US a 1 (Free) and China a 7 (Not free): http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/press_release/fiw07_charts.pdf

Look what Amnesty International say about Human Rights in China: http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/chn-summary-eng

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#27

Post by Goladus » Sat, May 12, 2007, 3:04 PM UTC

gibsonf1 wrote: post #9

Goladus wrote: post #4

http://headrush.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/06/dumbgroups2.jpg Sersiouly though, it's a complicated issue and the suggestion to reject the proposal may simply be because it needs revision.

If that were the case, why didn't they mention that, in principle, the proposal was good but needed to be revised which is why they recommended voting it down in its current form?

If it were me, it would be to avoid clutter and confusion, as there are only two possible ways to vote.

But that's just a guess.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#28

Post by comatose_kid » Sat, May 12, 2007, 4:08 PM UTC

gibsonf1 wrote: post #22

comatose_kid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were impri…

Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons. Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which…

I wasn't discussing what the main point of this thread is.

I was responding to the statement you made 'I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?'

Withdraw if you like. I'm normally not one to get into political/ideological debates, but a statement like this deserves to be challenged.

Yes, my examples are foreigners in a time of war. But, you said 'anyone', not US Citizens. But even if you ignore this (which I wouldn't really - a society should be judged by how it treats humans regardless of which country they happen to be a part of), you are still misguided.

How about Martin Luther King being jailed for anti-segregation protests? Does that count to your re-framed question?

I don't know if this could happen today (although the stage seems to be set with the wonderfully named Patriot Act which among other things has a section 215 which allows the FBI to search your library records), but the fact that it happened only a few decades ago should make you think twice before uttering blanket statements.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#29

Post by busy_beaver » Sun, May 13, 2007, 2:03 AM UTC

paul wrote: post #16

gibsonf1 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white. You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no gray. The case shown in your posted link is not…

The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?

"Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?"

Well, not you, and not anyone you know.

The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison".

To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.

Re: Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil."

#30

Post by albertcardona » Sun, May 13, 2007, 2:53 AM UTC

gibsonf1 wrote: post #19

nostrademons wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China is. Some examples: I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On the trip bac…

You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child, the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government is well documented. Hong Kong used to be…

As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather, for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy such freedom.

Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to foster a high education --by which I don't mean a university degree--, one is screwed forever.

In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time (only at grad school does one see a proper, comparable level to Europe), and parents wander clueless as to what is important to create self-sufficient, independent and free adults.