Oh dear! It looks like someone accidentally divided by 2 for the cylindrical hoop stresses, forgetting that they're not the same equation as for spherical stresses. :) Less facetiously, a thin-walled cylinder's stress is a function of pressure, radius and thickness with the equation: sigma = P*r/t whereas for a sphere (including the spherical end caps on a cylindrical pressure vessel), it follows the equation: sigma…
SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
131–140 of 265 posts
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is my understanding that the pressure vessels are carbon fiber composites. The skin is steel.
Do you have a source? My understanding is that the skin is the pressure vessel. The reason for going with stainless steel at all is because it maintains integrity at high temperature. Carbon fiber does not. So a stainless steel combined heatsink and structure can maintain integrity at 1000C or whatever, while carbon fiber+ceramic heatshield will need to hold temperatures below 400C or whatever. And even though the fi…
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#133Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Citations needed for the funding. Sounds like people being loose with the truth. The accounting alone would be close to impossible to keep separate.
I meant it as in no government contracts are going toward starship development, but looking it up it seems I'm actually wrong, maybe... The air force has given them some money for development on their Raptor engine, and they've talked about wanting more government funding for starship itself, but they've also talked about how starship has been privately funded so far.
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#135Oh dear! It looks like someone accidentally divided by 2 for the cylindrical hoop stresses, forgetting that they're not the same equation as for spherical stresses. :) Less facetiously, a thin-walled cylinder's stress is a function of pressure, radius and thickness with the equation: sigma = P*r/t whereas for a sphere (including the spherical end caps on a cylindrical pressure vessel), it follows the equation: sigma…
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#136Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's why you take your maximum design stress and double it, right? /s
I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.
Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#138Is the Starship Mk1 more structurally sound than it looks? From a first glance and having no knowledge of its design, it looks like an empty soda can that would deform at the slightest disturbance. And the way it crumpled in the video doesn't seem far off from what I would expect.
You're actually spot on. For example the Space Shuttle main tank had a 96:4 contents:structure ratio[0]. A soda can is 94:6. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/expeditions/exped...
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.
> in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.
Safety factor is really just a (somewhat blunt) method of managing risk. It's just admitting that we don't know the true load spectra that a design is exposed to, so we take what we believe is the max load and then slap a multiplier on it to manage how much uncertainty we expect, be it from estimates of that load, or dynamic factors, etc. etc.
We then also consider the consequence (since risk = likelihood x consequence). If the consequence of a failure is that our balsa-wood model bridge falls over, we shrug and keep it low. If it's that our pressure vessel undergoese a BLEVE [1] in the middle of a population centre then you jack it right the hell up.
There's nothing that specifically requires a safety factor. We could spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours understanding exactly the load spectra a design experiences, but that may be prohibitively expensive in the case of designing a bridge, so we instead accommodate more risk by overdesigning the item. In a space application where every kg of launch mass represents big $$$, then spending that extra time and money to understand the load specifics in more detail makes sense.
Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.
> in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.
Keep in mind that weld strength is not one single number, it is a wide range. You can inspect a weld with X-ray, UT, MT, and PT methods to narrow the range, but there are still variable heat input, soluble hydrogen content, pre-heat and post-weld heat treatment factors that ALL affect the final hardness/brittleness and ultimate strength of a welded fabrication.