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SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

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Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#131
post #71

Oh dear! It looks like someone accidentally divided by 2 for the cylindrical hoop stresses, forgetting that they're not the same equation as for spherical stresses. :) Less facetiously, a thin-walled cylinder's stress is a function of pressure, radius and thickness with the equation: sigma = P*r/t whereas for a sphere (including the spherical end caps on a cylindrical pressure vessel), it follows the equation: sigma…

They left the nose cone off to save money. I wonder if the designer counted on some portion of the cone weight to support the cylinder head in their design?

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is my understanding that the pressure vessels are carbon fiber composites. The skin is steel.

Do you have a source? My understanding is that the skin is the pressure vessel. The reason for going with stainless steel at all is because it maintains integrity at high temperature. Carbon fiber does not. So a stainless steel combined heatsink and structure can maintain integrity at 1000C or whatever, while carbon fiber+ceramic heatshield will need to hold temperatures below 400C or whatever. And even though the fi…

Apparently I have not been following this as closely as I thought I was. This 12 meter diameter tank is from 2016. Not part of current design.

https://everydayastronaut.com/stainless-steel-starship/

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#133
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An empty soda can is much stronger relative to its weight than a full one.

If it's filled with liquid.

I haven't known soda cans to be filled with anything else. And it's not like rockets are filled with air; they're filled with liquid fuels.

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#134
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citations needed for the funding. Sounds like people being loose with the truth. The accounting alone would be close to impossible to keep separate.

I meant it as in no government contracts are going toward starship development, but looking it up it seems I'm actually wrong, maybe... The air force has given them some money for development on their Raptor engine, and they've talked about wanting more government funding for starship itself, but they've also talked about how starship has been privately funded so far.

To be fair, the Raptor engine is a hell of an invention (a full flow engine!!), and well worth investing money into.

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#135
post #71

Oh dear! It looks like someone accidentally divided by 2 for the cylindrical hoop stresses, forgetting that they're not the same equation as for spherical stresses. :) Less facetiously, a thin-walled cylinder's stress is a function of pressure, radius and thickness with the equation: sigma = P*r/t whereas for a sphere (including the spherical end caps on a cylindrical pressure vessel), it follows the equation: sigma…

[deleted]

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#136
There was a post on HN a few days ago about how SpaceX got a full examination, while Boeing more or less got a pass from Nasa. This is a different vehicle, but it gives an idea of the maturity of SpaceX. And yes, the earlier story was really more about trying to establish a pattern around the 737 Max failure, but that issue was at least complicated. This is just sloppy.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21574080

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#137
post #85
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you take your maximum design stress and double it, right? /s

I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.

> in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy

Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#138

Is the Starship Mk1 more structurally sound than it looks? From a first glance and having no knowledge of its design, it looks like an empty soda can that would deform at the slightest disturbance. And the way it crumpled in the video doesn't seem far off from what I would expect.

You're actually spot on. For example the Space Shuttle main tank had a 96:4 contents:structure ratio[0]. A soda can is 94:6. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/expeditions/exped...

How does that compare to commercial airplanes?

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#139
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.

> in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.

They are, somewhat. You can theoretically make a safety factor 1.0 if you're really absolutely certain of the input criteria.

Safety factor is really just a (somewhat blunt) method of managing risk. It's just admitting that we don't know the true load spectra that a design is exposed to, so we take what we believe is the max load and then slap a multiplier on it to manage how much uncertainty we expect, be it from estimates of that load, or dynamic factors, etc. etc.

We then also consider the consequence (since risk = likelihood x consequence). If the consequence of a failure is that our balsa-wood model bridge falls over, we shrug and keep it low. If it's that our pressure vessel undergoese a BLEVE [1] in the middle of a population centre then you jack it right the hell up.

There's nothing that specifically requires a safety factor. We could spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours understanding exactly the load spectra a design experiences, but that may be prohibitively expensive in the case of designing a bridge, so we instead accommodate more risk by overdesigning the item. In a space application where every kg of launch mass represents big $$$, then spending that extra time and money to understand the load specifics in more detail makes sense.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLEVE

Re: SpaceX's Starship Mk1 just blew off its bulkhead in a pressurization accident

#140
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what happened here, but if I remember correctly, in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy. But I guess the safety factor for pressure testing is 4. Source: article 6.8.2.2 of this document; https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/as... Edit: I didn't see the "/s" before writing this comment.

> in rockets, safety factor is typically smaller than 2 or the design would be too heavy Safety factors feel like p-values. Why .05? Because. What if it's not good enough? We'll move the goal post.

It's more like a re-usability factor in mechanical design. Higher safety factor tends to equal fewer cracked welds down the road in anything exposed to vibration and shock. I've only ever heard of one lifting fixture weldment that used a safety factor of 1.0. Every single welded joint was taped instead of painted, and peeled off and fully mag particle tested between each use.

Keep in mind that weld strength is not one single number, it is a wide range. You can inspect a weld with X-ray, UT, MT, and PT methods to narrow the range, but there are still variable heat input, soluble hydrogen content, pre-heat and post-weld heat treatment factors that ALL affect the final hardness/brittleness and ultimate strength of a welded fabrication.

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