Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
211–220 of 1001 posts
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#212I'm going to take the opposite of this argument, and for bonafides, I run the product team for a 1000+ person company. I'm going to assume that this thing was tested out the wazoo, both qualitatively and behind enough feature-flags and buckets to keep Optimizely in business for a year. So I have no doubt that this wasn't just a hunch on their part, but something that they meticulously tracked. If I'm wrong, definitel…
Everyone that was using slack was clearly aware of backticks, underscores, and stars, which is really the most you need, and probably 99% of everything used. Surrounding some text with these marks to achieve some formatting is hardly rocket science. If someone doesn’t do it it is really because they don’t want to understand. If you however make an editor that fucks up using any of these marks? Well, that’s a big time…
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#213Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The goal is for workflows to evolve This exchange is a pretty good summation of one of the biggest purely practical reasons why I'm so obsessive about tools, and why I'm so willing to put up with the initial cost of learning systems like Linux and Vim/Emacs. Outside of fundamentally better workflow improvements, most professional fields don't randomly change their tools. If you gave a professional artist a new penc…
Your comment is a punch to the gut for me, I've been developing an internal CRM for two years that embodies many of the philosophies you describe. But while it is somewhat depressing, I'm left with questions about how bad it really is. First, is it possible to develop software without inconveniencing business users with temporary (let's assume the ultimate products are better then the linux/vim/emacs they are superse…
Imagine that every change you're making is like hitting your user in the face with a brick. If you're going to give me something amazing that makes my life better, I may let you hit me in the face with a brick so I can get it. But if you hit me in the face with a brick and then you give me something worse than what I had? Don't do that.
Learning the basics of Vim was a really big, hard change for me, but it was an adjustment to my workflow that was made for a specific reason, that made my life better and that made me more productive, and that (importantly) was a decision I made voluntarily. It was not change for its own sake.
> Would we still be able to have startups at all if products required thousands of hours of QA or perfect test suites in order to launch?
On the contrary, how many more interesting, better chat apps would we have if every one didn't feel the need to reinvent Markdown? Wouldn't it have been more useful if instead of rebuilding their editor for no reason at all, Slack's engineers instead added new API endpoints, or experimented with encryption, or added new search tools, or addressed any of the pain points that actually get raised by professionals using their product?
I would also push back against the idea that this is simply the cost of experimentation. Vim/Emacs are much more experimental editors than Word, yet even modern remixes of those editors like Spacemacs put more thought into user customization and consistency than Word does. Spacemacs' keybindings evolve -- but they never force you to accept that evolution if it would break something fundamental to your workflow. And Spacemacs is doing way more experimental, interesting stuff than Slack is.
To add further onto that idea, prioritizing future innovation over the productivity of real users is a very software-specific philosophy about how a professional field should work. New animation techniques come out all the time, but we don't look at people like Miyazaki and say, "that man is holding us back." It seems to be a software-specific scenario where a change is proposed, users say, "I don't like it", and then engineers get somehow upset about that fact, rather than just saying, "cool, it was an experiment. Let's revert and move on."
I did not get into programming because I love computer interfaces. For me, being treated like a professional means that a company makes me specifically more productive. I don't care if a change makes things better for someone else if that change is making it harder for me to do something I love. As a professional developer, it is OK to demand tools that work well for you. Again, this is the case for every other field -- no one expects a professional woodworker to switch to a new measuring system that they don't want to use, even if that system is popular with some people.
Of course no field gets this perfect, but virtually everyone gets it better than us. I'm not demanding a theoretical utopia I can only imagine. I'm looking at every other professional field and saying, "why can't we have the stuff that they have right now?" It's very much a feeling that's informed by how good it feels today to work with physical mediums as an artist, and how utterly crappy it feels by comparison to use Skype or Windows 10.
And if that means that software moves slower, who cares? It's not theoretical to me. Other mediums are better to work in -- so whatever they're doing, we should copy, because they're better than us.
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#215I suppose a new acronym would be suitable for this situation: WYSIWYGBNWYW, What You See Is What You Get But Not What You Want. With the availability of detailed API documentation ( https://api.slack.com ) that seems to make it relatively easy to write your own client (and they even link to some thirdparty clients as an example of what you can do), their refusal to change could almost be interpreted as "no, you fix i…
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Only in the software industry would someone tell me that my professional tools should change because change is inherently good Translation: "we're paying all these engineers and product managers and they need something to do"
This is honestly a major contributor to the badness of software in general. Ideal software would be continually fine-tuned and shrunk -- there'd be no bi-annual massive redesign, no change for change's sake alone. Instead of bored devs sitting around an office looking for ways to integrate $FRAMEWORK_OF_THE_MONTH and get those coveted resume points, a well-run project would make something work well and then they'd le…
This hits painfully home for me. I learned a few weeks ago that some of my coworkers did something akin to this. They were working on what was frankly a mostly-silly project to preserve the relevance of increasingly irrelevant internal tools. Once they had produced something working, they stopped. Then they re-implemented the whole thing in Rust.
Which few in the company know or use. There are no clear benefits to this except exciting resume points for the developer in question.
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#217Reading their non-replies on Twitter feels like I'm reading something specifically designed to piss me off. Smarmy apologies, low empathy, cocksure of how correct their vision of a chat service should be. This one in particular[1]: > The goal is for workflows to evolve, but we realize change can be a bit of a pain. "Stupid peasant, we are only here to help you. Once you see the glorious vision we have you will thank…
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#218I've given up entirely on the Slack desktop app and use Ripcord exclusively. Much faster, more responsive and easier to use for 99% of my time spent on slack.
I just tested ripcord and it didn't seem to work very well on Gnome. Didn't do dpi scaling so it looked tiny on my main monitor and the notifications showed up pretty broken.
Gnome should probably have the correct DPI values, since it's a complete DE, but I'm guessing something has gone wrong with the way the Qt version that Ripcord uses is reading the DPI values.
Try something like:
QT_SCALE_FACTOR=2 QT_AUTO_SCREEN_SCALE_FACTOR=0 ./Ripcord.AppImage
It would be better if this always worked out-of-the-box 100% of the time, but Linux desktop environments are quite varied and it's hard to handle every case while also not limiting support to specific desktop environments and versions.Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think Slack is building a chat service. Based on the features they are building, they could be aiming to be The Groupware[1] of 2020's. On the web site they put it this way "Slack is the collaboration hub that brings the right people, information, and tools together to get work done." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_software
That's a surefire path to irrelevance. Nobody wants groupware. Nobody uses it unless forced. On the bright side, that would leave a hole in the market for an enterprising chat developer to fill, hopefully with something less annoying and resource intensive.
Surely you're talking about some very specific crapware subset of groupware, because plenty of people choose to use, and very much enjoy using, all sorts of groupware. Distributed version control, issue trackers, simultaneous editing of documents... just to name a few examples of incredible groupware.
But yes, generally when it claims to do all the things, it does none well. This is orthogonal.
Re: Slack’s new WYSIWYG input box is terrible
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think Slack is building a chat service. Based on the features they are building, they could be aiming to be The Groupware[1] of 2020's. On the web site they put it this way "Slack is the collaboration hub that brings the right people, information, and tools together to get work done." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_software
That's a surefire path to irrelevance. Nobody wants groupware. Nobody uses it unless forced. On the bright side, that would leave a hole in the market for an enterprising chat developer to fill, hopefully with something less annoying and resource intensive.
Like one days work for 1 person?