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In Defense of Latin

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Re: In Defense of Latin

#161
post #152
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what "fully developed passive conjugation" is, but my language is very old and I imagine very difficult for English speaker to learn. There is an example how fun it can be: http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm

It means that every conjugation of an active verb has a corresponding passive form, as in your link: esąs - buvęs - būsįas versus esamas - būtas - būsimas . But that's underselling it a bit, because Latin actually had a full 3-dimensional matrix of conjugations: time-based tense (past, present, future), goal-based tense (completed or ongoing), and action (active or passive), with accompanying participles for each cas…

The definition you provide here does not apply to Latin.

> every conjugation of an active verb has a corresponding passive form

If we're talking about individual verbs, this does not and cannot apply to any language; there are always verbs that for semantic or syntactic reasons cannot take passive forms. (Examples in Latin: "esse" [to be] has no passive because the passive form of "to be" doesn't exist even conceptually; "sequi" [to follow] has no passive because sequi is, from a strictly syntactic perspective, already inflected as if it were a passive verb.)

If you're talking at a more general level about whether the language offers the possibility of a passive form for every active form a verb might possess, that still isn't true for Latin -- and in fact, the very example you give is quite badly wrong.

> Latin actually had a full 3-dimensional matrix of conjugations: time-based tense (past, present, future), goal-based tense (completed or ongoing), and action (active or passive), with accompanying participles for each case.

Side note: in the traditional analysis, a Latin verb is inflected in five dimensions ("tense", "voice", "mood", "person", "number"). What you call "goal-based tense" is traditionally just called "tense", though I agree with you that it is a separate dimension and shouldn't be conflated with actual tense. In linguistics, this dimension is called "aspect".

Latin participles do not inflect for person or number. Despite what you say here, they also don't inflect for aspect. They do inflect for tense and voice, but of the six possibilities (past / present / future) x (active / passive), only four are possible in Latin -- the present passive and past active forms do not exist for any verb. [1]

(It's possible to make the argument that Latin participles do inflect for aspect, in that some participial forms (the present and the future passive) use the imperfect verb stem and others (the perfect and the future active) use the perfect verb stem. That makes the argument you're making here weaker -- instead of Latin offering four out of six participial forms, it would be offering four out of twelve.)

[1] But remember how "sequi" couldn't have a passive form because it's already formally passive? This opens up a possibility for the perfect participle: secutus can mean "having been followed", the normal perfect passive sense, but it can also mean "having followed", in an otherwise impossible perfect active interpretation of the participle. The "passive form, active meaning" state of the verb can be carried through to its participle.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#162
Gardini's book sounds like fun, but I want to put in a plug for an older one that might be of more interest to this crowd: Ad Infinitum: A Biography of Latin and the World It Created by Nicholas Ostler.

This is a general-reader history of the Latin language that goes from its origin up until its use in the present day (too bad the book was written before the current obsession with the phrase "quid pro quo" in the US!).

Anyway, it really is a riveting tale, and it makes Gardini's argument for him: Latin really was the "language of the West" for the better part of 1500 years, and its ghost lingers on.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#163
I had Latin in high school. While I liked reading the stories and deciphering the verbs and case systems, I didn't see what the point of it was. I was assured I'd understand later, with some spiel about how it's a great literary language, how in medicine everything is (was) in Latin, how it is part of our history etc...

More than a decade later, I'm convinced, without bitterness, that it's a waste of time. Sure, it's not completely useless. The stories and culture were interesting (most of it taught in my native language of course, nobody ever learns to read it fluently, let alone speak it), and I'm sure learning to read Latin developed me in some sense, but not nearly in a way that it was worth that many hours per week, years on end. Time that could have been spent on useful skills or leisure, and almost all of the supposed benefits of Latin could have been gotten from learning a language that is still alive. Here in the north of Belgium most of us get French, German and English anyway. Maybe a non-European language would have been way more enriching.

Developing a passion for linguistics further cemented that view, because it taught me a lot of the mythos around Latin is plain wrong, "bad linguistics". Latin is not special, not better, not more logical or free or sophisticated or expressive or anything else compared to other languages. Of course it's beautiful and special, but every language is beautiful and fascinating and has its own unique interesting features. And of course some of the literature or poetry is unique and hard to express in other languages, but the same can be said for Japanese or Dutch. Nor did Latin lie at the root of other non-Romance European languages, Dutch and Russian and Greek are sisters and any similarities are simply retained from some common ancestor (or from language contact, which went both ways). Truth is, Latin is an unremarkable language from an unremarkable branch of Proto-Indo-European. I'm not saying that as a bad thing, the same holds for most other European languages, it's just that the only thing that made it special was that its speakers took over the world. Had history gone any different, we'd all revere Old Albanian, Common Slavic, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Mongolic etc...

I'm open to having my mind changed on this (as long as it doesn't involve bad linguistics), and of course, if people feel it personally enriches, I believe them and I'm happy for it.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#164
post #87
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, people like St Augustine, Erasmus, Newton, Leibniz, Descartes, Gauss and so on also kinda matter, and even if there is no disputing that Ancient Greece was intellectually far more important than Ancient Rome, the fact that Ancient Greek has probably less of 100 years worth of really important stuff (ignoring Homer) whilst Latin was used by the world's foremost minds for centuries (as you note) also must count f…

Indeed, we can imagine a past where Greece's learning was as lost as the Maya codices. But we could also imagine a past in which the Academy wasn't chopped down, where the Library at Alexandria wasn't burned but survived until the present day, where Chrysippus's works on logic weren't lost, where Archimedes's invention of the calculus (and whatever else he would have discovered if he hadn't been murdered by Roman sol…

Carl Sagan explored this possibility in "Cosmos", speculating that by now we'd have dodecahedral interstellar spacecraft.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#165
post #163

I had Latin in high school. While I liked reading the stories and deciphering the verbs and case systems, I didn't see what the point of it was. I was assured I'd understand later, with some spiel about how it's a great literary language, how in medicine everything is (was) in Latin, how it is part of our history etc... More than a decade later, I'm convinced, without bitterness, that it's a waste of time. Sure, it's…

> nobody ever learns to read it fluently, let alone speak it

That's probably part of the problem. Learning a language is no fun if you can't actually use it.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary Lots of languages are like this. Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Polish, etc. And those are just the ones that I know. Janu miluje Petr. -- PETR loves Jana. Petr miluje Janu. -- Petr loves JANA. Petr Janu miluje. -- Petr LOVES Jana. etc etc The only people who say that Latin is uniquely flexible are those people with no experience i…

Moreover, case decensions are very difficult to learn for people from non-case languages. They often exist in addition to verb conjugation for person/number/gender and tense. They have their own divisions into various groups, and irregularities. Moreover, there are other ways to achieve flexibility in word order, such as particles which agglutinate without tweaking the target word in any way: Japanese: PetrがJanaを好きだ。…

The grammar here isn't standard. Usually you'd mark the subject doing the liking with は and the object being liked with が. Both generally function as topic markers in other circumstances, so context is important. You can even occasionally use は to mark the object being liked if you're pointing out one particularly liked thing. Using を to mark a subject of affection is pretty rare and regarded as incorrect/usually just a tongue slip.

Oftentimes in conversation, particles will be completely dropped in a 好き statement. So getting something like "俺、これ好き" (I, this like) isn't uncommon. In that situation, it's the pause marking the subject doing the liking. If the order is reverse, usually the object marker is used, though as in "これすき、俺は" (this like, I).

Japanese grammar is a complex mess. It uses particles and can be orderless, or it can drop many particles (sometimes all) and have everything marked by pauses and timing.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#167
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge value in understanding Latin, or at least some parts of it - it allows you to derive a vast dictionary of words that have been subsumed into the English language. Sure there's derivability of terms in English, but the depth to which that is true doesn't really compare.

You can learn living languages and still derive that benefit. Learning French taught me about a number of English words. I can't say that alone would justify the effort to learn a language though.

Perhaps not, but my rudimentary understanding of Latin - learnt only in passing - has on many occasion allowed me to correctly derive and interpret words I'd never seen or heard before.

However, the rudimentary nature of my understanding has caused me on occasion to derive etymologically invalid words - such as enthnosupremacist - but fuck it, it's English - why can't I mix my etymologies?

(although in this case, I'd probably hyphenate it).

And to an extent far more versatile than anything on the English side of my understanding of language.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#168
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few more examples: 1) z and s, or ce and se, are pronounced the same everywhere except some parts of Spain. I guess not an example of silent letters but still, an example of a distinction that existed historically/etymologically but that no longer does in the spoken language for the vast majority of speakers. 2) The h is silent in every dialect despite having usually represented a real sound in Latin

Also and have merged in a lot of versions of Spanish. The is postclassical but represents /w/. A minimal pair for these in Latin is bis 'twice' and vis 'force'. (Well, not quite, because of different vowel lengths... let's try bilis 'bile' and vilis 'vile'.)

So, I can't speak to Spanish, but I can speak to French. There, the suffixes that are silent in Metropolitan French are still pronounced in some regional dialects, but the grammar doesn't really change (that I've noticed).

That leads me to think that it could just as easily be that grammar changes render the agglutination superfluous, and it subsequently withers away like a vestigial organ.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#169
post #2

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that, together with other grammatical features, gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: It allows you to express the content in such a way that the way you express it matches the content. For example, consider the verses: Daedalus…

It would be interesting to know how much this was a feature of everyday Latin versus how much it may have been essentially a constructed language used only by highly-educated people. Would a Roman farmer in the field even understand that sentence? Would it sound natural to them? Would they ever speak it? The disconnect between literary language and everyday language is sometimes relatively high even in today's world…

In the past the divide between the educated and the illiterate was indeed extreme, and so was the difference between the written and the generally spoken ("vulgar") language, let alone local dialects.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#170
Ok, how do I learn Latin?

But what reasources are there to understand and read Latin? It seems every resource wants to teach me I need to inflect, which I already know.

I want audio books, children's games, in short comprehensible input.

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