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The 40% Keyboard

tbf-rnd.life

131–140 of 334 posts

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#131
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend. But you could still enjoy looking at your keyboard with the coloured keys while not using it to type at that exact moment.

Exactly. Some of those colored unlabeled keyboards look stunning on the desk. Why should a keyboard be purely a utility and not part of the room design. I own an unlabeled keyboard and I mildly regret it. I have no issues typing with it but I struggle with special keys like trying to find ^ or f5. Typing 2fa codes are a pain. If I was buying a new keyboard I would get a labeled one but with no numpad

Stunning? They are often a cacophony of gaudily bright colors.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#132
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the “planck” example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the rows). It also doesn’t work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer but all on the same row, requiring 8 fin…

If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough and I hate typing camelcase code) Number keys…

The further keys on a sculpted Kinesis keyboard are angled the wrong way for comfortable typing (this is an unfortunate artifact of their curved PCB technology combined with lack of first-principles analysis by the designers). You want the switch axis to remain perpendicular to the hand, because flexing the proximal joint of the finger is the way people press keys, and using the whole hand to stab at further keys the way the sculpted Kinesis board requires is not particularly comfortable or efficient. There are also several other design problems with the Kinesis boards, but this isn’t really the right place to discuss it at length.

It’s certainly possible to have 2 rows of reasonably reachable keys past the home row (especially if the tops of the further keys are aggressively raised – think 1950s typewriter). Even in the best case those keys are substantially slower and more error prone (and less comfortable) than the home row or next row above, but with decent design can be made nominally acceptable to type on.

But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions (like numbers and common symbols) on shifted layers, as long as the shift keys are conveniently located. Using pinkies for shift is not the most comfortable choice, especially pinky keys which are a stretch to reach. Modern keyboard layouts are quite terrible for making common computer code symbols accessible.

If you find it uncomfortable to hold down a shift key, consider trying a sequence of key presses instead. That is, let your "shift" just act as a dead key, modifying the immediately following keypress. Try putting your various shift keys on a thumb or forefinger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key

I have no particular insight into game inputs, except to note here that a significant proportion of serious computer game players develop severe RSI because their use of keyboard hardware is extreme (and arguably the hardware they use is not very well suited to handling the job safely).

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#133
post #98

People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This thing on the bottom - https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR . People fiddle with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists…

Indeed. A lot of the ergonomics people talk about is not backed by any scientific research.

Switch to dvorak to minimize finger travel and use a flat keyboard on an inverted stand.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#134
post #114

It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts’s law in this case) for their unscientific choices. There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a 40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several months), just “fitts’s law and we move less”.

It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless (and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties). I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year)

Here's a study I could find with a quick search: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0...

Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard, but there's less discomfort.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#135

Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing than upgrading/innovating devices.

Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited by your typing speed when coding? I can type fast but there’s no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing speed, I’m always pausing to think about what I’m writing. If you type slower, you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?

Touch typing is not about speed to start with, its about the correct placement of the hands.

Yes not looking at the keyboard is a useful side effect, but from ergonomics point of view, not over stretching to reach a key really is important.

I was forced to learn touch typing when I was about 11. I hated every moment of it. It was an interactive program, and I had to have a box over my keyboard so that I was forced to use muscle memory to get the right key.

But, it meant that I have my hand in the right place, the correct angle, and use the correct force.

As a side effect, I'm not thinking about where letters are, and having to look at my keyboard(as much). This means that typing is almost like speaking, in terms of cognitive load. (hand writing is much slower and arduous for me)

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mouse is closer so you don't have to move your hand as far. Not if you use a mouse left-handed ;) But more seriously, I grew up being trained to touch type in the classical way complete with ten-key exercises. I strongly prefer having a full numpad and I actually prefer the extra distance to the right for mouse usage. I've found over the years that the more I move my hands, the less likely I am to have discomfor…

God damn you cheating lefties! You cant have cake and eat it too! I really wish for keyboard options with numpad on the left. I am using numpad rarely but its handy to have when in need.

This exists.

I have used this keyboard for the past few years, and swear by it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O

Full num pad, but on the left.

For right-handed people like me, this makes the mouse position more natural, while still letting me use the num pad when needed.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#137
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real annoyance of mine. None of the real nice mechanical keyboards are available in a fullsize layout. A numpad is NOT negotiable for me...several creative apps I regularly use use the numpad for control (and no, the regular number row keys ARE NOT mapped to the same commands).

Buy a separate numpad and put it to the left of your keyboard. It provides a more ergonomic position for your mouse and allows you to use the numpad and the mouse simultaneously. Keeping the numpad on the right is a relic from the days before mice and is a huge ergonomic error.

I swear by a keyboard with a built-in numpad on the left.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21582790

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#138
post #21

I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys, so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example) I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than squeezed together. I think that's more impor…

The only thing I dislike about my corne as opposed to the iris and redox I use, is the missing [] in the centre.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#139
post #128
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I use the numpad to navigate source code and other text files. I very rarely use the mouse under those circumstances. So this very much depends on our personal style and use cases.

Yeah definitely somewhere where people should be allow a personal preference. What does that numpad offer that is not already on the rest of the keyboard? I think if you are comfortable touch typing numbers then there's not much advantage to having a number pad. (I've worked from laptops (without numpad) connected to an external monitor for about 15 years now so I may be missing something potentially useful here.)

> What does that numpad offer that is not already on the rest of the keyboard

Navigation using one hand, allowing even different body positions. Those who don’t use it have to do Ctrl-this Shift-that. I press singe keys with a single hand allowing me to have less of constant strain in both hands than if they were always at effectively same position. Like some other posters here I believe “always everything in same position” during longer work times is worse.

During my work hours I spend more time navigating than typing, so that’s what I optimise for.

Re: The 40% Keyboard

#140
This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on MiniVan keyboards: https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-in...

Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly to your board using open source QMK firmware: https://docs.qmk.fm

Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack their own hardware.

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