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Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

bbc.com

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Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#141

Post by authoritarian »

solipsism wrote: post #101
colejohnson66 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the old “he was free to leave anytime” argument. No. He wasn’t. Yes, technically, he was free to leave, but arguing that is ignoring the fact that leaving would mean jail. It’s victim blaming. Would you say a victim of Stockholm Syndrome is “free to leave at any time”? No, because that’s a ridiculous argument. Would you say Snowden is “free to leave [Russia] at any time”? No! So why is it an acceptable argument w…

Either there's a rule of law or there's not. You can't hide from the police and then claim that the very act of hiding is an act of torture enacted on you by the police.

[flagged]

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#142

Post by arrrg »

colejohnson66 wrote: post #124
arrrg wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that line of thinking doesn’t make sense to me … Just for the sake of argument, say you are a bank robber who successfully barricaded yourself somewhere (really uncomfortable) where police cannot reach you. You are then free to leave at any time, but would be arrested as soon as you did. Would you really argue that police would have to drop the case to avoid torturing you? Your line of thinking seems to presuppos…

I’m not arguing that the case is unjust. I’m refuting the argument that he was free to leave at any time. I see where the two cross, so I’ll argue the former here: He’s wanted because he embarrassed the United States government. Espionage laws are a horrible attack on free speech and freedom of the press and I’m appalled the Supreme Court previously ruled they’re constitutional.

I think that’s a much more coherent argument, especially if you factor in a fear of disproportionate punishment.

For example, in the case of the bank robber I would actually agree that it would amount to torture if police were clearly communicating to the bank robber that they were intent on killing them as soon as they showed up, no matter what they did.

So there is nuance to this and I don’t think that nuance ever gets you around to actually arguing the case and the facts of the case.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#143

Post by willis936 »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #69
willis936 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is something that is within the lawmakers’ power to do.

In the US Ex Post Facto laws are constitutionally forbidden. Other jurisdictions is not so clear but it is generally frowned upon.

The supreme court has weakened the definition in its interpretation. I find that absurd since I think the definition in the constitution sufficient.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#144

Post by syshum »

P_I_Staker wrote: post #130
colejohnson66 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the old “he was free to leave anytime” argument. No. He wasn’t. Yes, technically, he was free to leave, but arguing that is ignoring the fact that leaving would mean jail. It’s victim blaming. Would you say a victim of Stockholm Syndrome is “free to leave at any time”? No, because that’s a ridiculous argument. Would you say Snowden is “free to leave [Russia] at any time”? No! So why is it an acceptable argument w…

Okay, but then any criminal on the lamb is being tortured? If someone jumps bail, we should just leave them alone, so we don't traumatize then? All criminals are being tortured (these same things happen in prison). I don't agree with how all this was handled, but I think we're being a bit rediculous here.

>> All criminals are being tortured (these same things happen in prison)

If you are talking about US Prisions then there is a Good Case to be made that is true. The Treatment of Prisioners in the US is abhorrent

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#145

Post by isostatic »

Miner49er wrote: post #85
pjc50 wrote: post #38

It's not torture if you can leave at any time. He wasn't being held in the embassy, he was hiding there.

If the alternative is potential death or at least more torture for the rest of your life it's not really a choice.

Sweden doesn't have a death penalty. If it did, UK law would not allow extradition to Sweden.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#146

Post by gnode »

rzwitserloot wrote: post #36
willis936 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they probably shouldn’t. Statute of limitations should only be to protect against fast changes to the law that apply retroactively.

The notion that a new law does NOT retroactively apply to acts done before the law was enacted is not called a 'statute of limitations'. A statue of limitations serves a few purposes. 1. At some point closure is better than justice, or at least, that's a theory. Better to get a crime on record because the committer of it confesses to it than not. The idea being that after, say, 10 years, the odds that the criminal wo…

I think it could be argued that case law is a prevalent form of ex post facto law in common law systems, and so constitutes an additional justification for statutes of limitations.

Many acts are ambiguously criminal, until clarified by a test case. Legal decisions are also often made in the context of time, taking into account what is commonly considered offensive, what a person is presumed to know (in establishing mens rea). It's difficult to try some crimes with a modern perspective and take into account what was considered acceptable in the past.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#147

Post by colejohnson66 »

isostatic wrote: post #140
colejohnson66 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the old “he was free to leave anytime” argument. No. He wasn’t. Yes, technically, he was free to leave, but arguing that is ignoring the fact that leaving would mean jail. It’s victim blaming. Would you say a victim of Stockholm Syndrome is “free to leave at any time”? No, because that’s a ridiculous argument. Would you say Snowden is “free to leave [Russia] at any time”? No! So why is it an acceptable argument w…

So he was free to leave, but would then face Swedish justice, which is the 4th best in the world [0], just behind Denmark, Norway and Sweden. [0] http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/#

After which he would be extradited to the US...

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#149

Post by buboard »

k1m wrote: post #35

Worth mentioning that Nils Melzer, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, visited Assange and described his treatment as psychological torture: > “It was obvious that Mr. Assange’s health has been seriously affected by the extremely hostile and arbitrary environment he has been exposed to for many years,” the expert said. “Most importantly, in addition to physical ailments, Mr. Assange showed all symptoms typical for…

7 years confined in a room, no matter how nice the embassy, common sense says it is obviously psychological torture.

Re: Sweden Drops Julian Assange Rape Investigation

#150

Post by whatshisface »

duxup wrote: post #134
k1m wrote: post #35

Worth mentioning that Nils Melzer, the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, visited Assange and described his treatment as psychological torture: > “It was obvious that Mr. Assange’s health has been seriously affected by the extremely hostile and arbitrary environment he has been exposed to for many years,” the expert said. “Most importantly, in addition to physical ailments, Mr. Assange showed all symptoms typical for…

I find the idea of the threat of prosecution in a free country as a form of "torture" a bit questionable. It's something, but i'm not sure I agree with calling that torture.

Assange has been under conditions a little worse than "threat of prosecution."
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