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Scapegoating free software’s failures

writing.kemitchell.com

101–110 of 123 posts

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now take the same reaction you just had, and apply it in the context of Kyle's post. > When I wrote a strong copyleft license for dev tools, the FSF faithful objected. Why wouldn’t a movement best known for dev tools and software freedom want a copyleft license that requires devs using dev tools to make their work free? Because it's not Free software. It may be an improvement over proprietary software, but it's still…

Why aren't SSPL, API Copyleft, Parity, CAL, and Icepick free software licenses? GPL restricts my freedom to build and share closed applications with free libraries, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that restricts others' freedom. AGPL restrict my freedom to build and share network applications as closed software with free code, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that restricts othe…

The licenses you mention are not Free Software licenses because restricting what people do with their software (and not just how they share it) violates rule 0.

> Why can't a license restrict my freedom to build closed applications with free dev tools, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that likewise restrict others' freedom?

It can.

If just won't be a FOSS license by the traditionally understood definition of FOSS. For better or worse, the Free Software definition guarantees more freedom around end-user usage than it does around how you distribute software.

And maybe you think that's an arbitrary distinction. That's fine. You can build anything you want. You could build your own "Software Equality" or "Extended Copyleft" movement, or whatever you wanted to call it. Maybe it'll be even better than FOSS. The only thing you can't do is confuse people by calling your licenses something that they're not.

Nobody is upset that SSPL, API Copyleft, Parity, CAL, and Icepick exist. They're all fairly interesting licenses. I'm glad that they exist. Just stop trying to co-opt a movement and blur lines that have been clearly understood for years.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#102
post #94

The author makes interesting points well illustrated by the abuses, by multinational corporations and internet fatcats, of the licenses we depend upon. But he neglects to mention the fundamental point that the community is not well served by a proliferation of licenses.

So, what is the alternative? What am i supposed to do if I think there is no license that deals satisfactory with the problems I have, and I'm can't create a new one, because, well, it makes things a bit less straightforward for my users?

One alternative, for the author, would have been to mention it. Address it, even.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From where I sit it appears the FSF has come up with a particular definiton of "free" and opposes anyone using the term "free software" if their meaning of free differs from what the FSF desires. Maybe the term "FSF free" should be used when that is the intent rather than trying to corral the term "free software" itself.

The FSF came up with a particular definition of "free", the community broadly accepted it, the community and developers releasing software under that definition built up a particular public association with that term, and then a bunch of companies decided they wanted the all the goodwill of that term without paying attention to any of the fundamental rules the community had established years ago. Literally this entir…

Before now there was no conflict for the the term free software. When it accomplished the same goal for everyone many people just didn't care about a precise meaning. It was "free enough" for all views to fit in the same tent.

Large corporations are now stepping the unwritten meaning held by one portion who were previously satisfied with the overall outcome. Before, these people didn't care who owned the term as long as the goal was achieved. Now that the situation has changed these people want the phrase to mean what they always believed it meant. Even though you might not have been aware this difference even existed.

The meanings of words change with the progress of humanity. Nobody gets to hold on to a word like free just because they're comfortable with its current usage.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#104
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what is the alternative? What am i supposed to do if I think there is no license that deals satisfactory with the problems I have, and I'm can't create a new one, because, well, it makes things a bit less straightforward for my users?

One alternative, for the author, would have been to mention it. Address it, even.

To me, it's not really proliferation if the license addresses issues no other license addresses. Just because it adds one or more licenses to the number of existing licenses, doesn't mean those licenses should not exist.

Also, as a developer I think choice is good. If users have to do a bit more work to figure out whether they can or want to use code because of its license then that is unfortunate, but not too much to ask.

Why exactly do you think writing such a new license is doing more harm than good?

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FSF came up with a particular definition of "free", the community broadly accepted it, the community and developers releasing software under that definition built up a particular public association with that term, and then a bunch of companies decided they wanted the all the goodwill of that term without paying attention to any of the fundamental rules the community had established years ago. Literally this entir…

Before now there was no conflict for the the term free software. When it accomplished the same goal for everyone many people just didn't care about a precise meaning. It was "free enough" for all views to fit in the same tent. Large corporations are now stepping the unwritten meaning held by one portion who were previously satisfied with the overall outcome. Before, these people didn't care who owned the term as long…

That argument assumes a conclusion I reject -- I disagree that the culturally understood definition of FOSS has already changed outside of specific set of businesses. And in the same way that nobody gets to hold onto a word indefinitely just because they dislike change, it is also true that nobody gets to redefine a word just because it helps their marketing.

The current evolution of language like "free" is a political movement pushed by political actors; it's not based on an observation of how culture has evolved, but on a belief about how culture should evolve -- specifically how culture should evolve to benefit specific business interests.

In other words, Mongo didn't wake up one morning and discover that FOSS had changed, Mongo made a decision to try and change FOSS.

Of course, businesses and critics have the right to argue about FOSS definitions, and traditional FOSS advocates have a right to tell them to buzz off and stop stealing the positive associations that exist in no small part because we were dogmatic about definitions.

My position is that there are scenarios where dogmatism about words is genuinely important, and that sometimes, changing definitions should be resisted. The muddying of FOSS is no different from the muddying of words like "organic" or "humane" as labels for food products. Without a strong governing organization like FSF to prevent the dilution of these terms, the terms will quickly become meaningless and useless for end-users and consumers. FOSS may not be a purely prescriptive term, but that doesn't mean that every database product on the market should be able to manipulate it whenever they feel like they aren't making enough money.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before now there was no conflict for the the term free software. When it accomplished the same goal for everyone many people just didn't care about a precise meaning. It was "free enough" for all views to fit in the same tent. Large corporations are now stepping the unwritten meaning held by one portion who were previously satisfied with the overall outcome. Before, these people didn't care who owned the term as long…

That argument assumes a conclusion I reject -- I disagree that the culturally understood definition of FOSS has already changed outside of specific set of businesses. And in the same way that nobody gets to hold onto a word indefinitely just because they dislike change, it is also true that nobody gets to redefine a word just because it helps their marketing. The current evolution of language like "free" is a politic…

While I can't help you with your opinions and beliefs I do understand what you're saying. MongoDB may have done this purely to for marketing. They may also genuinely believe the change still leaves their code being free software. I don't know anyone there.

The change, if there is one, won't be because of you or me. It will happen over a few years time or it won't happen. It will be driven by what people accept and what they don't. A few extremely loud voices may turn the tide in either direction so maybe there's good reason for each side digging in their heels and making noises. Either way, each individual's idea of free software will exist under the names that evolve out of this skirmish. Both businesses and coders will adapt.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#107
post #61
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Parity License a source-available share-alike freeware license? It seems very different from GPL and even the ideas by which copyleft was originated.

Would you care to elaborate? To me, it seems very much in the 'spirit' of what GPL set out to do back when, updated to eliminate issues that weren't/couldn't have been forseen. Parity is not perfect (yet), but to me it's the most viable attempt at a modern copyleft license to date. Technically, one can argue Parity is not 'open source', if one acknowledges that only OSI approved licenses should be called 'open source…

To me it seems very unclear what this license means in practical terms. It mentions that contributions are needed unless it's prototype but definitions on what it means isn't there. Can you operate gmail-type of service, call it beta and not release the code for many years because it's "used for for non-production user testing"?

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#108
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) why wasn't AGPL used for GPLv3? I don't know the actual reason, but these are my opinions. First, I seem to remember at the time the GPLv3 was being worked on there was some push to include the language from the AGPL. I believe (though I could be mistaken -- it was a long time ago) that the wording in AGPL was considered to be a bit ambiguous. There was some worry that the definitions of "convey" and/or "propoga…

> I actually don't think SaaS is a good way to sell services. It's rent seeking. Big yikes. That is a really intriguing idea. Rent-seeking to me means that the seeker has exclusive control over some asset that they did not themselves create, and uses that to extract rent from people who want access to it. Amazon selling free software SaaS doesn't seem like rent-seeking, because Amazon don't have exclusive control ove…

For me the best example of "rent seeking" is actual rent ;-) You build a building and you rent out rooms in it. It's the initial outlay of capital that you turn into a steady income stream without having to put any more work into it. This is in contrast with selling a service where you charge for your labour. My objection to rent seeking with regards to SaaS is similar to what happens with rental properties without regulation: there is a great incentive not to address problems since all labour past the initial capital cost is a cost centre, not a profit centre. Similar to some situations with rental properties, it is also relatively easy for vendors to lock in customers by not providing facilities to move their data somewhere else. As a user of services, I think SaaS is a poor way to offer a service. It's can clearly be a desirable situation for the vendor ;-) Probably that wasn't clear in my previous message.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why aren't SSPL, API Copyleft, Parity, CAL, and Icepick free software licenses? GPL restricts my freedom to build and share closed applications with free libraries, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that restricts others' freedom. AGPL restrict my freedom to build and share network applications as closed software with free code, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that restricts othe…

The licenses you mention are not Free Software licenses because restricting what people do with their software (and not just how they share it) violates rule 0. > Why can't a license restrict my freedom to build closed applications with free dev tools, in order to prevent the creation of closed software that likewise restrict others' freedom? It can. If just won't be a FOSS license by the traditionally understood def…

> It just won't be a FOSS license by the traditionally understood definition of FOSS. For better or worse, the Free Software definition guarantees more freedom around end-user usage than it does around how you distribute software.

I appreciate your frank admission of the distinction, but I have yet to hear a good defense of it that both rests on something other than "that's the way we said it is" and doesn't trap GPL or AGPL.

The understanding you describe exists, but I can't agree that it's broadly shared or accepted. If there's a tradition, it belongs to a very narrow tribe. That tribe isn't growing particularly fast precisely because its tenets are so esoteric and don't stand up to typical hacker interrogation by those not thoroughly marinated in the political history. That's the "byzantine, insular ideology of copyleft" I mentioned in the blog post.

> The only thing you can't do is purposefully confuse people by calling your licenses something that they're not.

I can call it open, and I do. Folks may hear both your view and mine, but the result isn't confusion. It's a choice.

There is no proprietary right in the terms "free software" or "open source". And there is no good reason for those presently ill served to pretend those ill serving them enjoy such a right. When a better mousetrap comes along, the designer of the last model doesn't get to pull the words "mouse trap" out of the newcomer's mouth. As in software, so in licenses: lead, follow, get out of the way, or get run over. When I follow my people to a license problem, I try my best to lead with solutions.

> Nobody is upset that SSPL, API Copyleft, Parity, CAL, and Icepick exist.

I'm glad to hear you say so, but I've received lots of feedback from people who are upset. And not just because "license proliferation". Have a look at the OSI license-review archives ... though I don't generally recommend that.

> The licenses you mention are not Free Software licenses because restricting what people do with their software, and not just how they share it, violates rule 0.

Making changes and building applications are things that people do with software, ways that people use software, in common parlance. The only folks I know who want to split that hair aim to defend FSF's free software definition. That definition was largely a post hoc rationalization designed to alleviate the cognitive dissonance between the increasingly libertarian, permissive bent taking over open source ideology via OSI/ESR and the overt prescriptivism of GPL. OSI revels in permissionlessness and an idealized, rules-free environment. GPL is full of rules.

It was politically expedient to draw a line around GPL and say "no rules, except these rules, because we need these people as allies". Not rigorous. Not otherwise coherent.

> Just stop trying to co-opt a movement and blur lines that have been clearly understood for years.

That movement hasn't moved in some time. The initiative is out of initiative. There is no widespread understanding of the details we're discussing. We are both rarefied wonks.

The movement you seem to think I'm coopting was itself coopted. Open source "won" by giving software freedom to developers who don't pass along to end-users in turn. I don't apologize for writing copyleft licenses that eschew the compromises of the earlier forms. Especially in light of their performance to date.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#110
post #104
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One alternative, for the author, would have been to mention it. Address it, even.

To me, it's not really proliferation if the license addresses issues no other license addresses. Just because it adds one or more licenses to the number of existing licenses, doesn't mean those licenses should not exist. Also, as a developer I think choice is good. If users have to do a bit more work to figure out whether they can or want to use code because of its license then that is unfortunate, but not too much t…

It might benefit the author, a little, but it imposes new costs on everybody else.
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