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Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

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Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#31
post #16

500 years of foundation? I guess the history of the Mesoamericans who lived there prior to their genocide by the Europeans isn't available?

Dude the history of humans is brutal. The only way societies consolidated and culture formed is through the battles and conquers of the past. We're now at a point where we have the prescience to not repeat the past. But just respect that that is how you yourself are alive on this planet. Your ancestors killed and conquered the resources of others, and that's how they propagated to get to you. It's foolish to believe…

> It's foolish to believe otherwise.

Where do they believe otherwise? They're merely mentioning that the city was populated prior to the genocide. You're defending atrocities against a specter of your own imagination.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude the history of humans is brutal. The only way societies consolidated and culture formed is through the battles and conquers of the past. We're now at a point where we have the prescience to not repeat the past. But just respect that that is how you yourself are alive on this planet. Your ancestors killed and conquered the resources of others, and that's how they propagated to get to you. It's foolish to believe…

> It's foolish to believe otherwise. Where do they believe otherwise? They're merely mentioning that the city was populated prior to the genocide. You're defending atrocities against a specter of your own imagination.

In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization, etc. And also I'm not "defending against my imagination"... there's so many commenters that think history is so reprehensible and modern day people should be directly guilty for things that happened 500 years ago.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's foolish to believe otherwise. Where do they believe otherwise? They're merely mentioning that the city was populated prior to the genocide. You're defending atrocities against a specter of your own imagination.

In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization, etc. And also I'm not "defending against my imagination"... there's so many commenters that think history is so reprehensible and modern day people should be directly guilty for things that happened 500 years ago.

> In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization

Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization, etc. And also I'm not "defending against my imagination"... there's so many commenters that think history is so reprehensible and modern day people should be directly guilty for things that happened 500 years ago.

> In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?

I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?

I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

Hm. Whom has America conquered? Puerto Rico I guess. Any others?

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?

I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

> I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response.

What's wrong with an emotional response to an atrocity? Is it irrational to cry over the Holocaust because, hey, the Tsars didn't some pretty bad pogroms, too? No, emotional responses are perfectly fine and are a normal mode of thinking. Your fetishization of reason is dangerous and echoes the same rhetoric that enabled these atrocities: oh, they're not people, they're savages because X, so cut off their hands if they don't bring enough silver. The correct response here is to denounce colonialism, not to say, "oh, hey, it's not that bad because other people have done bad things."

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

Hm. Whom has America conquered? Puerto Rico I guess. Any others?

Putting aside questions of what it means to "buy" the Louisiana Territory and then use military force against the indigenous peoples, one obvious one is the Spanish-American War, where we got Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippine Islands.

We then had to fight the Philippine Republic for control of the country, in the Philippine-American war.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

> I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. What's wrong with an emotional response to an atrocity? Is it irrational to cry over the Holocaust because, hey, the Tsars didn't some pretty bad pogroms, too? No, emotional responses are perfectly fine and are a normal mode of thinking. Your fetishization of reason is dangerous and echoes the same rhetoric that enabled…

Haha you're putting words in my mouth. Of course I have an emotional response to events of the past, usually negative like most people. I'm just separating that from the historical and factual response, and understanding the difference between the two.

The point is that it wasn't just Europeans that have done bad things in the past. It was every type of person. And now we can collectively move past with the lessons.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#39
post #4
post #3

umm, can someone explain how significant this is?

At least 3 significant digits, since we know the exact year; but given we seem to know the exact day you could probably claim it's more like 5 significant digits (500.00 years).

Brevity is the soul of wit

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#40
post #28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I recommend you to read history. There was no genocide in Cuba Perhaps your history is written by Spaniards. I notice you didn't give any specific books to read. I'll do you a favour. Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/Brevisima-relacion-destruicion-Humani... The cover is "A 16th-century illustration by Flemish Protestant Theodor de Bry for Las Casas's Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias, depicting S…

I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong. While some atrocities did happen there was no genocide at all. That's why the old Spanish Empire in America is full of indigenous and mixed people. In coutrines like Bolivia the indigenous population is like 80%. How's that possible with? 500 years ago the Spanish crown forbid by slavery and declared that all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone. They also encouraged…

Las Casas's reaction to the atrocities, which the depiction shows, lead him to advocate for abolition of slavery.

That is, dm3730's comment concerns events which took place before slavery was prohibited, while your response concerns a later period of time, making it a rather inapplicable comment.

And I'll note that Spain had African slaves (not abolished in Cuba until 1886), and allowed slavery of indigenous people who rebelled against Spanish rule.

There's a debate over the genocide question. Eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_an... says:

> Raphael Lemkin (coiner of the term genocide) considers Spain's abuses of the native population of the Americas to constitute cultural and even outright genocide including the abuses of the Encomienda system.

Do note also the "Skepticism toward alleged demographic declines and accusations of genocide" section on the same page.

The encomienda system allowed for forced labor, with severe punishment for not complying. But no, it wasn't, technically, slavery.

You ask "How's that possible [that the indigenous population of Bolivia is like 80%."

Where's the incompatibility? Tell me, what's the indigenous population of Cuba?

The US genocide of the indigenous Californians killed something like 90% of the indigenous population. But there's no similar genocide of the indigenous Hawaiians or Alaskans. Does the lack of a US genocide in one place mean that there was no genocide anywhere? Clearly no. So your example doesn't prove anything.

You write "all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone".

That's like saying that the US founders believed that "all men are created equal."

First off, did conversos have the same rights as non-conversos?

Second, do you believe the sistema de castas did not exist, or had negligible effect? Because, to quote from https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/60962114/Oxf...

"Yet, there were very real spiritual and social consequences tied to this system in which Indians and Africans were deemed to be of lesser spiritual ability, received a watered-down version of the faith, and were relegated to an inferior spiritual status within the religious fold. ... That culture of inferiority and suspicion around the purity of their religious belief and practice was reinforced socially and spatially throughout colonial society. Because they were perceived as constantly in need of correction, colonial controls on their bodies and souls were all the more heightened. In addition to limited access to the sacraments,Indians and Africans experienced heavy regulation of their spiritual and social activities. Indians were regularly restricted to reducciones as a means of taming their natural inclinations to better prepare them for proper Christian practice. Africans were subject to the jurisdiction of the Inquisition to regulate any unorthodox or immoral behavior. Confraternities and religious brotherhoods, arguably the most active aspect of popular religious life in the Spanish and Portuguese Americas, were often segregated by casta category or ethnic origin, with whites holding positions of power to monitor their ritual practice."

Hardly an example of "same rights", no?

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