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Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

reuters.com

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Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is close to saying child rapists rape children behind closed doors so you shouldn't have locks, ignoring that well locked doors benefit everyone who has a house. It's disingenuous.

While I support the sentiment that privacy is important, comparing encryption to locks in this ghastly context is self-defeating. Recall that there were more than one instance where critical evidence against a wealthy person, required for the prosecution to make a compelling case in court, was obtained by force with a police raid. At least one such instance happened in the US in 2019 and was well-publicized. Now imag…

You know one way the situation would be way different?

We'd less need for the police.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#42
post #19

I had an idea that a decent compromise is to limit keystrength, but not have any kind of backdoor. This way the vast majority of communication is protected, and the government can't just spy en mass. But, if there was some specific target they could throw a lot of computing resources at it. But they would need to know in advance who to target, they couldn't just have a wide dragnet. Thoughts?

> if there was some specific target they could throw a lot of computing resources at it

1. Yes, for many (too many) values of they. "Your" government, all governments, so essentially any corporation, or any private individual that can afford time or computing resources and is interested in a target.

2. This scheme doesn't age well. Targets' mandatory low-grade encrypted communications today could be saved as blackmail time capsules, much more easily decrypted with cheap resources in the too-near future.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#43

Encryption is math, and not even hard math at that. You have as much chance of stopping evil people from using encryption as you have of stopping them from doing multiplication. Make every politician who opposes encryption feel like an idiot for thinking they can stop people from adding and multiplying.

Sadly, courts will laugh and proceed. The same argument could be done for firearms – it’s just physics, and not even space/quantum physics. Really, a device pushing a small body to some direction via expansion of another body. It’s all bodies, you can’t stop people from surrounding them with these.

If adopted, a law will state “the piece of information for which format and representation cannot be detected in a considerable amount of time” and then a judge to decide. Send some random bytes and you’re in trouble.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#44
post #29

Lots of criticism here, fair enough, it’s very worrying to give non-transparent institutions this kind of power, not to mention the technical feasibility. But... what should be done about child pornography, then? The ability to disseminate it with impunity is a problem we can’t just pretend doesn’t exist. Using online platforms pedophiles can monetize and go full time professional in countries where children are easi…

Your answer is in the monetization system and old fashioned police work and auditing. The financial transfers are already regulated and monitored. Investigate and trace and even if the other end is under absolutely no influence (unlikely given diplomatic clout and foreign aid). Investigators doing their job can still obtain a list of everyone who was party to paid remote molestation schemes.

Of course the dirty secret is that 'for the children' is just a pretense. We can tell because their current actions show that they don't give a damn about the children or their welfare.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. It would appear all the necessary components for encryption are impossible to ban, by simple common sense if not by guarantees of very basic constitutional or charter rights. 1. public and private keys (criminalize the possession of large integers?) 2. transmission and reception (criminalize freedom to speak or write or read or hear large numbers or random-appearing text?) 3. encryption and decryption (crimin…

The weirdest part of this is criminals making child porn already break the law, why would the law stop them using encryption? It doesn’t actually make sense.

Their basic idea is that those who encrypt messages would be easily traceable and countable.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#46
There must be an algorithm that we can apply to show what such a change will have for society. If the probability is that the change is negligible, we should consider allowing it. But if the probability is that the change is overwhelmingly "bad", we should not allow it. Let's not argue from ignorance. What are the numbers? What are the ethics?

For example: Say if we listened in on all connections, we would catch an extra 200 predators. But we also know that several hundred million people's private conversations would be scrutinized by government(s). We know from historical precedent that letting child predators go unnoticed means more children get abused. But we also know from historical precedent that governments scrutinizing otherwise private information about citizens leads to abuses of government's powers, and of citizens' rights.

An algorithm could show estimates, such as "for this given change in the US, 1,750,000 people's rights may be potentially violated for every 1 new predator arrested". But if the value was actually 5,000 additional predators caught, this would become "70,000 people's rights potentially violated for every 1 predator caught". This is of course a very wacky over-generalization based on some ballparked numbers, which is why an algorithm with more data could give more realistic probabilities.

But also from the other side of the algorithm, you could look at our historical access to privacy. Telephones and mail have been monitored in the past by law enforcement. Now that we have privacy, we don't want to give it up. But would it actually benefit society more to have less privacy? Again, you tune the algorithm to take data about when we had privacy and when we didn't, what the outcomes were, and what the potential new outcomes are from a change. It could be that as a society, we actually don't significantly benefit from, or could do without, total privacy of remote communications. But then again, our transactions weren't all remote. All of these considerations (and more) if compiled in some way that could be easily analyzed, may lead to a conclusion that is easier to reason about.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#47
post #28
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also this is a good time to remember that not every citizen has to have the same values on this. Some people might think the tradeoff in terms of freedoms vs security is worth it. It seems everyone is so eager to paint the other side as objectively wrong / motivated by bad intentions, when in reality I don't believe this is an objectively right answer. As a society we have to decide how much freedom and security we…

Privacy is a human right. Encryption backdoors for governments are human rights abuses. It has nothing to do with safety; it is not a debate about “how much safety do we purchase with reduced privacy”. It’s just as firearms rights have nothing to do with hunting, or a militia.

I said this in an earlier comment: for both encryption and guns, they will always come at a cost to society, but that cost is the price of democracy. They will always cost something, and we will always need them, but we can work to create environments that need less of them and environments that make them less costly.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#48
post #37
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many years of reading on HN, I used to just accept that encryption is the best thing. And from a point of view of what will happen, that’s what will happen. But should we as a society want this? I would argue these days that it is far better to be able to reconstruct a conversation and prove someone said something. In case things go wrong, we have to have a way to establish truth, and prove things, so we can have fai…

>the answer is to fix the government and the laws, and not to sneak around It would be nice if someone “fixed” some governments (and some crimes as a side quest), but 1) condemning privacy only makes this harder than de-facto almost impossible. 2) “prove someone said something” is not how our earth-wide culture works. We are basically based on the fact that conversations are private to some extent. Did you find yours…

> That’s cool, but something hints me you’re not living in one of these countries where hard work is required. Swap with one of its citizens, make a change, then we talk.

There are some points in the GP though. Ideally we should try to fix the government and the laws for who can't, but even people in countries blessed enough to be able to try don't try enough.

Re: Interpol plans to condemn encryption spread, citing predators

#49
post #23

Imagine for a moment that ssh became illegal. Is it even possible for the tech economy to continue? What would that look like? My head hurts. Actually, think of what Attorney General Barr said: Corporations should have access to strong encryption, just not little people. In that horrifying sort of world, there would be encryption licenses perhaps. And general purpose computing would be under a large threat. It is so…

It’d probably be some new PKI on top of SSH where your private key would be held in escrow by an identity provider. e.g. Your username is your email address, and your email provider retains your key pair. It’d probably be portrayed as an improved key management solution that allows more frequent key rotations and revocations. Might even start with being required for government projects, resulting in supported impleme…

Forced key escrow was actually floated before, when I was a kid in the late 80's/early 90's.

Even as a child it seemed like a terrible, dangerous idea.

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