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Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

bbc.com

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Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#11

Post by reitzensteinm »

jcranmer wrote: post #10
jariel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the oldest 'Western' cities in the colonial New World. They were established just after 'contact', just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans, at the dawn of the Reformation, before the Enlightenment ... just at the very start of the 'modern period' in Europe. To give some context, Napoleon was 100 years closer to 'our time' than he was to 'that time'. The last English king to die…

> just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans The Fall of Constantinople was in 1453, the Empire of Trebizond fell in 1461, and the Principality of Theodoro in 1475, which marked the final end of any state claiming to have been the "true" successor to the Byzantine Empire after its defeat in 1204 in the Fourth Crusade. All of these dates markedly predates Columbus's contact voyage in 1492.

They're in the same lifetime. I don't think that a few decades here or there matters to parent's point.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#12

Post by goatinaboat »

xrd wrote: post #6

At one point Cuba exported 60% of the world's sugar. If not for a trade embargo with the US (its most important trade partner) for the last 70 years, Cuba would be a very different place. Who knows if many of these architectural relics would be in better shape (arguably "progress" might have meant they would have been demolished for newer buildings). They have an amazing literacy rate (99.7%, one of the highest in th…

At one point Cuba exported 60% of the world's sugar.

The USSR paid 5-10x the global market price for Cuban sugar to prop up their fellow regime. But when the USSR dissolved Cuba had no one else willing to be its patron and it’s economy wasn’t designed for the real price.

There are nice buildings around Havana, gorgeous colonial mansions for the chosen few. Most people live with 3 families crammed into an apartment designed for one.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#13

Post by goatinaboat »

jariel wrote: post #8
xrd wrote: post #6

At one point Cuba exported 60% of the world's sugar. If not for a trade embargo with the US (its most important trade partner) for the last 70 years, Cuba would be a very different place. Who knows if many of these architectural relics would be in better shape (arguably "progress" might have meant they would have been demolished for newer buildings). They have an amazing literacy rate (99.7%, one of the highest in th…

There is no 'blockade' of Cuba, they are free to trade with the other 186 or so nations on planet earth, and can buy/sell most American goods via other destinations. They are a member of the WTO (!!) Since commodity markets are fungible there isn't a huge reason for sugar to be seriously devalued. It's hard to 'blame America' for the totalitarian rule of Castro Inc. in Cuba, this subject makes me wonder deeply about…

I suggest it would be the richest in Latin America.

It would face some stiff competition - well-governed, Venezuela or Argentina could easily be. And we know this because for brief periods, they were!

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#14

Post by selestify »

jariel wrote: post #8
xrd wrote: post #6

At one point Cuba exported 60% of the world's sugar. If not for a trade embargo with the US (its most important trade partner) for the last 70 years, Cuba would be a very different place. Who knows if many of these architectural relics would be in better shape (arguably "progress" might have meant they would have been demolished for newer buildings). They have an amazing literacy rate (99.7%, one of the highest in th…

There is no 'blockade' of Cuba, they are free to trade with the other 186 or so nations on planet earth, and can buy/sell most American goods via other destinations. They are a member of the WTO (!!) Since commodity markets are fungible there isn't a huge reason for sugar to be seriously devalued. It's hard to 'blame America' for the totalitarian rule of Castro Inc. in Cuba, this subject makes me wonder deeply about…

That is simply not true — see the 180 day rule that prevents any ship docking in Cuba from entering US ports for the next 180 days. It’s not like the rest of the world is just free to trade with Cuba without repercussions from the US, and given the much smaller Cuban market, it’s not surprising that many operators would rather avoid the trouble of unloading cargo there. The revolution has done pretty remarkably well given the adverse circumstances it was placed under.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#15

Post by kome »

blondin wrote: post #9
jariel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the oldest 'Western' cities in the colonial New World. They were established just after 'contact', just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans, at the dawn of the Reformation, before the Enlightenment ... just at the very start of the 'modern period' in Europe. To give some context, Napoleon was 100 years closer to 'our time' than he was to 'that time'. The last English king to die…

but... since you mentioned the french, isn't french cities like paris more than thousands of years old. thanks for replying though, i was just curious why havana is suddenly singled out because it seems still a young city.

yes, Rome and Paris have 1000+ years, but Havana is one of the first "western" colonial city in the "new world".

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#18

Post by varjag »

selestify wrote: post #14
jariel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no 'blockade' of Cuba, they are free to trade with the other 186 or so nations on planet earth, and can buy/sell most American goods via other destinations. They are a member of the WTO (!!) Since commodity markets are fungible there isn't a huge reason for sugar to be seriously devalued. It's hard to 'blame America' for the totalitarian rule of Castro Inc. in Cuba, this subject makes me wonder deeply about…

That is simply not true — see the 180 day rule that prevents any ship docking in Cuba from entering US ports for the next 180 days. It’s not like the rest of the world is just free to trade with Cuba without repercussions from the US, and given the much smaller Cuban market, it’s not surprising that many operators would rather avoid the trouble of unloading cargo there. The revolution has done pretty remarkably well…

Shipping is a plentiful resource, lots of shipowners are not on good terms with the U.S. Treasury already and 6 months is not that much time. Doubt that rule has much effect: the invisible hand helps communists just as good even if they hate it.

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#19

Post by tyri_kai_psomi »

jcranmer wrote: post #10
jariel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are the oldest 'Western' cities in the colonial New World. They were established just after 'contact', just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans, at the dawn of the Reformation, before the Enlightenment ... just at the very start of the 'modern period' in Europe. To give some context, Napoleon was 100 years closer to 'our time' than he was to 'that time'. The last English king to die…

> just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans The Fall of Constantinople was in 1453, the Empire of Trebizond fell in 1461, and the Principality of Theodoro in 1475, which marked the final end of any state claiming to have been the "true" successor to the Byzantine Empire after its defeat in 1204 in the Fourth Crusade. All of these dates markedly predates Columbus's contact voyage in 1492.

Byzantium still existed, it was just under Ottoman domination, and relatively speaking of course, the Ottomans were relatively more tolerant than Christians than other Muslim empires, and the heritage of Byzantium was transferred to Russia, the connections with the West were still strong. This may just come down to it depending on which history books you read.

Fun fact: The Patriarchate of Constantinople still exists today!

Re: Havana celebrates 500 years of foundation

#20

Post by arethuza »

tyri_kai_psomi wrote: post #19
jcranmer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just as Byzantine (i.e. E. Roman Empire) finally fell to the Ottomans The Fall of Constantinople was in 1453, the Empire of Trebizond fell in 1461, and the Principality of Theodoro in 1475, which marked the final end of any state claiming to have been the "true" successor to the Byzantine Empire after its defeat in 1204 in the Fourth Crusade. All of these dates markedly predates Columbus's contact voyage in 1492.

Byzantium still existed, it was just under Ottoman domination, and relatively speaking of course, the Ottomans were relatively more tolerant than Christians than other Muslim empires, and the heritage of Byzantium was transferred to Russia, the connections with the West were still strong. This may just come down to it depending on which history books you read. Fun fact: The Patriarchate of Constantinople still exists…

I always found the idea of Moscow as the "Third Rome" quite fascinating:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

[Also the derivation of Tsar from Caesar]

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