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Scapegoating free software’s failures

writing.kemitchell.com

31–40 of 123 posts

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#31
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The header said “Venture Capital Shill”, so I thought I was using a term he self identified with. Maybe I was wrong about that and it is just the title of the article.

You literally quoted part of the section that describes that the author considers that label an unfair attack made to allow people to ignore his arguments. And then used said label to attack him and ignore his arguments. The article is worth reading more carefully, even if you don't agree with him.

I will, thanks for your comments.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#32
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would not be free software. Free software passes on the freedom to the USER of the software, preserving access to the source code, the ability to change it, etc.

Not to nitpick but OP mentioned "OSS" not "FOSS." Open does not mean free. You can allow others to access to your IP without the freedom to use it however they want, since nothing is black and white.

https://opensource.org/osd-annotated specifically excludes licenses that “restrict the program from being used in a business”.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#33

All of the licenses this person defends have serious defects which are being ignored here. FSF saw and understood there were many weaknesses in gplv2 which is why they worked so hard on gplv3, which is the standard bearer for copy left in my opinion, including it's derivatives like a/l(gpl). The main criticism that is valid is the "gunshy enforcement" by FSF, but if you listen to people like Eben Moglen they are very…

I believe I mentioned enforcement only in closing. As far as licenses go, my criticism was sharper: FSF licenses as intended allow substantial bodies of activist work to benefit venture capital-backed, closed-software companies. Those intentional drafting decisions are incongruous with a post-hoc politics of VC scapegoating.

You mentioned Moglen's public writing on enforcement, and I think you summarize it fairly. But it is precisely that posture that I criticize as gunshy. The Principles of Community-Oriented GPL Enforcement lay it shorter and plainer.

The idea that the law isn't ready for GPL enforcement is laid bare by other organizations' success enforcing GPLs. This has some folks within the FSF camp worried: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1mGG4JYurE They are losing the power to construct and enforce their own social truth about the licenses they published.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#34
post #26

They mention it in one of the lines of this blog, but apparently this individual (perhaps with the help of others, it wasn't clear) has come up with two of their own software licenses, with a website and everything. https://guide.licensezero.com/ > The Prosperity Public License (Prosperity) works a bit like a Creative Commons NonCommercial license, but for software. Prosperity gives everyone broad permission to use y…

I am in fact the prime mover behind License Zero (https://licensezero.com), but I am by no means alone in it. Parity and Prosperity would not be what they are without enormous amounts of feedback and suggestions from users and interested hackers. Some of those folks agreed to be listed here: https://licensezero.com/thanks

There may be more copyleft licenses than you think. Blue Oak Council, in which I'm also involved, recently published this resource: https://blueoakcouncil.org/copyleft#copyleft-families

That being said, you're absolutely right that we've seen more permissive licenses than copyleft license, by simple count. Compare: https://blueoakcouncil.org/list

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#35
post #26

They mention it in one of the lines of this blog, but apparently this individual (perhaps with the help of others, it wasn't clear) has come up with two of their own software licenses, with a website and everything. https://guide.licensezero.com/ > The Prosperity Public License (Prosperity) works a bit like a Creative Commons NonCommercial license, but for software. Prosperity gives everyone broad permission to use y…

> However, I always found it a bit strange that there were dozens of variants of the MIT and BSD license out there, but aside from the GPL and MPL no other popular license really took up the mantle of copyleft, aside from perhaps the old Sleepycat license.

Fundamentally, copyleft can only be instantiated once. No two distinct copyleft licenses as we know them can be compatible with each other without jumping through carefully-placed hoops[1] because the combination necessarily imposes stricter distribution conditions (there would be no point otherwise), which is expressly what each copyleft license seeks to prohibit per se.

I think it's only a slight exaggeration to say that the perceived problem of license proliferation, and the ecosystem of license gatekeeping that sprung up around it, owes itself wholly to the design of the GPL in this respect.

It didn't last. The GPLv2/3 split haunts us to this day.

1: e.g. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/MPL/2.0/FAQ/#mpl-and-lgpl

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#36

All of the licenses this person defends have serious defects which are being ignored here. FSF saw and understood there were many weaknesses in gplv2 which is why they worked so hard on gplv3, which is the standard bearer for copy left in my opinion, including it's derivatives like a/l(gpl). The main criticism that is valid is the "gunshy enforcement" by FSF, but if you listen to people like Eben Moglen they are very…

I believe I mentioned enforcement only in closing. As far as licenses go, my criticism was sharper: FSF licenses as intended allow substantial bodies of activist work to benefit venture capital-backed, closed-software companies. Those intentional drafting decisions are incongruous with a post-hoc politics of VC scapegoating. You mentioned Moglen's public writing on enforcement, and I think you summarize it fairly. Bu…

Well, I have to admit, you make some convincing points. I feel like I have a lot of reading to do. Are there any books or even blogs that really delve into the meat of the subject you can recommend? I think there is a lot of internal criticism in FSF that doesn't get leaked due to fear of it portraying a weakness, but that needs to be talked about regardless, and you are doing that. Thanks for a balanced response.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#37
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

employees agree not to exercise their GPL redistribution rights If you prepare a derivative of a GPL app as a work for hire, what GPL rights would you have? You don't own the copyright on the modifications, the employer does.

Hypothetically: the employer gave you a copy of the modified software (by having you modify it). He's bound by the license and so are you?

From the GPL section 2:

> You may convey covered works to others for the sole purpose of having them make modifications exclusively for you, or provide you with facilities for running those works, provided that you comply with the terms of this License in conveying all material for which you do not control copyright. Those thus making or running the covered works for you must do so exclusively on your behalf, under your direction and control, on terms that prohibit them from making any copies of your copyrighted material outside their relationship with you.

> Conveying under any other circumstances is permitted solely under the conditions stated below. Sublicensing is not allowed; section 10 makes it unnecessary.

So based on my reading, your employer can convey the software to you without complying with the normal copyleft terms.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#38
post #4
post #2

While this article's tone is somewhat angry and personal, it makes some quite interesting points and takes a perspective that I've never heard before. Before reading the article I was tentatively in favor of more expansive copyleft licenses such as Mongo's SSPL, for various reasons. But I hadn't considered something implied by that position, which this article says directly: The FSF and what one might call "mainstrea…

Two point he made that I've often wondered about. 1) why wasn't AGPL used for GPLv3? 2) why should companies be able to keep proprietary version from being distributed? The second one I can see being possible by having employees agree not to exercise their GPL redistribution rights as a condition of employment. Still it seems like a large group of companies could all agree to that kind of thing to effectively take a…

> 1) why wasn't AGPL used for GPLv3?

I don't know the actual reason, but these are my opinions. First, I seem to remember at the time the GPLv3 was being worked on there was some push to include the language from the AGPL. I believe (though I could be mistaken -- it was a long time ago) that the wording in AGPL was considered to be a bit ambiguous. There was some worry that the definitions of "convey" and/or "propogate" (I think) were not on solid footing. Eventually all that got sorted out and without looking at the original text of the AGPL I can't recall off hand, but I think they changed the text for AGPLv3.

I think there was also some concern that perhaps AGPL was not the way to go. As you no doubt know, the intent of the GPL is to allow people to run software for any purpose. You can even modify the software and keep it to yourself. The need to include source code only ticks in when you distribute the binary -- so that the recipient has the same abilities you do (minus the ability to change the license). There definitely was some discussion at the time whether or not the AGPL's further restriction impinged on Freedom 0. I admit that I mostly ignored this conversation, so hopefully someone else will give you a better answer.

For myself, I've mostly moved over to the AGPL, but I still find some of the wording to be not as good as I would like (I won't bore you with the details). I feel that the GPL is a more secure and conservative license that has been tested quite thoroughly in the court. It was a difficult choice for me to decide which one I wanted to go with since I agree with the aims of the AGPL license, but don't quite trust it as a legal document to the extent that I do the GPL. I presume others feel the same way I do.

> 2) why should companies be able to keep proprietary version from being distributed?

Possibly my reasoning will appeal to you because it is bereft of moral qualifiers ;-) A license is a license. In most cases licenses give the recipient more freedoms than they would enjoy without the license (otherwise they wouldn't need a license -- in some complicated licenses you give up something in consideration for something else, but I won't get into that). The question is how much freedom should you give the recipient of your program?

I value software freedom. The software world is vastly better in my opinion since the concept of software freedom came into existence. I want to promote this kind of software and hope that it dominates for most software that I will come into contact with. Because of this I write free software and think hard about how to make pure free software businesses work (currently writing a game of all things...)

The most important part of free software from my personal perspective is the idea that there is an even playing field. To be honest, I don't even like the idea that the upstream author can change the license on you if they control the copyright. As a user, I want some continuity. I don't want to have a split where suddenly my local contributions have less value because I have to compete against software that I can no longer contribute to. This is not a moral choice in my personal view. It's purely selfish. I choose to use free software particularly because it stops a lot of shenanigans from the upstream producer.

On the other hand, as an author I also have needs. I choose to write free software. My downstream users do not necessarily have the same point of view that I do. I am not going to change the license (and encourage multiple copyright holders in my projects specifically to make it difficult to change the license). I don't want to compete against a downstream that has more options than I do. It's purely pragmatic.

Now, the question you will undoubtedly ask is, if I'm OK with this restriction, why am I not OK with the restrictions in these SaaS licences. Surely I understand that they are trying avoid competition with a downstream that has no obligation to contribute and can supply the same service with a higher efficiency (and therefore lower cost).

In truth, have a considerable amount of sympathy, but there are really two key issues. First, I do not want to use software with those restrictions. It's not like I wish fire and death to them, but I'm decidedly blaze about their existence. I'd rather collaborate with groups that treat me how I want to be treated, rather than groups that are not as bad as the other guys.

From an author's perspective, I understand their plight, but I actually don't think SaaS is a good way to sell services. It's rent seeking. As much as I appreciate the idea of a near O(1) (per user) complexity for cost structure, I think it results in services that... don't have much service if you get my idea. It devolves into the Googles of the world and I'm not actually that keen on it. I think there are better business models waiting to be discovered (but I'm busy with my crazy free software gaming business model and there is only so much crazy that even I can keep track of, so don't ask me to do it).

But, if they want to do it, I'm not picketing their offices. Neither am I picketing Microsoft, Adobe, or even Oracle. I don't like it, but I'm not king of the world. If you ask me to cheer them on? No thanks. If you ask me to say, "Surely this is better than not having it?" No thanks. It definitely isn't for me.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#39
post #3
post #2

While this article's tone is somewhat angry and personal, it makes some quite interesting points and takes a perspective that I've never heard before. Before reading the article I was tentatively in favor of more expansive copyleft licenses such as Mongo's SSPL, for various reasons. But I hadn't considered something implied by that position, which this article says directly: The FSF and what one might call "mainstrea…

I've thought this for years: the aggressive defense of super liberal OSS licenses with no sort of "SaaS clause" or other limits turns FOSS into free labor for SaaS companies. SaaS is more closed than closed: you control nothing, not even your data, and can trivially be spied on and monetized in other questionable ways. The fact that some of the pieces of a SaaS site are open source is meaningless and changes nothing.…

>free labor for SaaS companies

Approximately all then open source software I work with on a daily basis is SaaS companies pooling efforts on the problems they have in common, yes.

Re: Scapegoating free software’s failures

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe I mentioned enforcement only in closing. As far as licenses go, my criticism was sharper: FSF licenses as intended allow substantial bodies of activist work to benefit venture capital-backed, closed-software companies. Those intentional drafting decisions are incongruous with a post-hoc politics of VC scapegoating. You mentioned Moglen's public writing on enforcement, and I think you summarize it fairly. Bu…

Well, I have to admit, you make some convincing points. I feel like I have a lot of reading to do. Are there any books or even blogs that really delve into the meat of the subject you can recommend? I think there is a lot of internal criticism in FSF that doesn't get leaked due to fear of it portraying a weakness, but that needs to be talked about regardless, and you are doing that. Thanks for a balanced response.

Unfortunately, there's no single tome directly on point of these debates that I'm aware of. Some of these debates are very old, but some are also basically current events. I'd also be suspicious of any one point of view, including my own.

As for blogs, I'd strongly recommend all the folks mentioned in the post, all of whom I link from my blogroll (https://writing.kemitchell.com/blogroll.html).

Bradley Kuhn: http://www.ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/, but see also https://copyleft.org, to which he's contributed extensively

Heather Meeker: https://heathermeeker.com/

Van Lindbergh: https://processmechanics.com/

My own: https://writing.kemitchell.com

I think I remember correctly that Bradley and Van were generally against SSPL, while Heather and I were for it. But you should ask them, rather than take my word for it!

For a more general reading list, see this one from Blue Oak Council: https://blueoakcouncil.org/lawyer-reading-list

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