Microsoft Advertisement Inc. • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#61

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:07 AM UTC

input_sh wrote: post #55

Nextgrid wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to my friend with whom I spent 30 minutes trying to figure out why Netflix wasn’t working on a brand new Ubuntu install. Had to enable a repo and install an extra package through the terminal. I can do it but there’s no way a normal user would figure that out on their own.

What are you talking about? Netflix works just fine in both the popular browsers that are available on Ubuntu with no packages needed. You either install Chrome just like you would on Windows (just click on .deb instead of .exe), or you click on "enable DRM" on a pre-installed Firefox. What repo? What extra package? None of that is needed.

I have enabled DRM on Firefox and it still didn’t work. I had to enable more repos (the community ones I think) and install libavcodec-extra as per an answer on AskUbuntu.

I’m suspecting the package can’t be preinstalled for licensing reasons (even though I ticked the non-free software box during install) but in this case why not replace the library with a shim that displays a notification to the user and allows them to install the package through a GUI?

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#62

Post by panpanna » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:12 AM UTC

apk-d wrote: post #54

frou_dh wrote: post #30

When a clean install of Windows 10 ""Professional"" had prominent ads for Candy Crush in the Start Menu, is when I realized MS had lost their dignity.

To solve this, they have an upgrade you can get called "Windows 10 Pro for Workstations". Costs a little over $300. Quoting the blog post on windows.com: "You will see for Windows 10 Pro for Workstations productivity and enterprise focused applications in place of consumer applications and games. This was one of the top feedback shared with us by our partners and users and we're delivering this in our next update" La…

I wonder what engineers working on vscode and wsl feel when they run into people working on OS monetization in the company restaurant...

What do you need to say in your interview to be assigned to the latter team?

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#63

Post by PeterStuer » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:13 AM UTC

pcr910303 wrote: post #32

A little bit irrelevant to the article: Unpopular opinion but, is opt-outtable telemetry that bad? Of course using tracked behaviors for add targeting is bad (which is why my opinion is irrelevant to the article) but using telemetry to do AB-tests, UX-tests, finding bugs, etc... what’s really bad about it? Every comment about telemetry in HN reads something like ‘Telemetry with opt-out is bad, so GitLab is bad, VSCod…

Yes, it is that bad. Dark pattern opt-in tomfoolery is bad enough. The current 'good luck finding your way out of this maze of never ending twists and turns' opt-out horror scenarios is 100x worse, and that is after you found out about all the tracking and reporting shenanigans and the existence of the opt-out in the first place.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#64

Post by nroets » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:17 AM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #17

nroets wrote: post #4

Microsoft had the dominant consumer operating system since the 1980s. Using that advantage (and not innovation and quality !) they were able to grab substantial chunks of other markets: Word processing, commercial compilers, cloud computing etc. Next up is digital assistants and advertising. What is the alternative for average consumers ? Chrome books ?

Chromebooks have the same problem; they’re backed by an advertising & stalking company - the laptop is just the carrot on the stick; the main objective is to gather data and waste your time with ads. The only alternative is Apple; they’re not perfect and have done some scummy things (see the right to repair, etc) but their whole marketing has been based around privacy and I can’t see them screwing that up as it’s pre…

Personally I don't have a problem with ads: They have subsidized many cool things over the years. Newspapers is one. Open source software written or supported by Google is another.

I'm personally also ok with tracking provided there is a reasonable regulatory framework e.g. GDPR. But I do sympathize with people uncomfortable with all forms of tracking.

Apple products are expensive and will only become more so if everyone tries to buy it.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#65

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:29 AM UTC

nroets wrote: post #64

Nextgrid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chromebooks have the same problem; they’re backed by an advertising & stalking company - the laptop is just the carrot on the stick; the main objective is to gather data and waste your time with ads. The only alternative is Apple; they’re not perfect and have done some scummy things (see the right to repair, etc) but their whole marketing has been based around privacy and I can’t see them screwing that up as it’s pre…

Personally I don't have a problem with ads: They have subsidized many cool things over the years. Newspapers is one. Open source software written or supported by Google is another. I'm personally also ok with tracking provided there is a reasonable regulatory framework e.g. GDPR. But I do sympathize with people uncomfortable with all forms of tracking. Apple products are expensive and will only become more so if ever…

The problem with ads (there are many problems, but in this context this one is the most relevant) is that it's inherently incompatible with productivity. Ads waste your time and try to influence you or make you buy things instead of doing whatever you initially planned to do. This means ad-supported tools try to maximise ad viewing time ("engagement" as they call it), so it's in their best interest to make the tool less efficient so you spend more time on it.

I want my operating system and other critical tools to work for me by saving me time, not against me by wasting my time so I get the opportunity to see more ads.

Imagine if you were a plumber, would you use a wrench that has a built-in screen and makes you watch a 30-second ad before it actually allows you to unscrew a pipe? And then periodically beeps while in your toolbox so that you have to take it out and stay "engaged"? No - any sane person would say "this is crap" and throw it in the garbage. Why should it be any different for IT tools?

The GDPR has yet to do anything regarding tracking because it's not being enforced at all - Google and Facebook's entire business models are based on violating the GDPR and yet they are still around. The regulation has some good ideas including around consent and dark patterns (tracking must be opt-in, should not be misleading, etc) but it has yet to be enforced despite there being millions of sites blatantly violating it.

> Apple products are expensive and will only become more so if everyone tries to buy it.

That would be the market at work. Maybe when the prices rise even more Microsoft will realise just how much money they're leaving on the table and go back to making good software?

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#66

Post by neilpanchal » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #37

> And, Apple has lit this torch. Too bad this ends on this line. So you recommend trusting another corporation over Microsoft to be virtuous over the long term? The only OS you can truly control is well known, and it's Linux.

“Apple has lit the torch”, I mean that Apple is leading the way forward for privacy centric products and services. Whether one chooses to trust Apple and buy their products, that’s debatable. But, it is evident, and clear that Apple’s press, their marketing, keynotes, technology and their products in last 3 years have a central theme - Privacy.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#67

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

apk-d wrote: post #54

frou_dh wrote: post #30

When a clean install of Windows 10 ""Professional"" had prominent ads for Candy Crush in the Start Menu, is when I realized MS had lost their dignity.

To solve this, they have an upgrade you can get called "Windows 10 Pro for Workstations". Costs a little over $300. Quoting the blog post on windows.com: "You will see for Windows 10 Pro for Workstations productivity and enterprise focused applications in place of consumer applications and games. This was one of the top feedback shared with us by our partners and users and we're delivering this in our next update" La…

> You will see for Windows 10 Pro for Workstations productivity and enterprise focused applications in place of consumer applications and games.

This means there will still be spam in the start menu, just a different kind of it? Wow.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#68

Post by neilpanchal » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:38 AM UTC

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #58

What a load of shit. I love the guy trying to infer Microsoft's ad profit centers by trying to read between the lines of marketing copy. Entertaining stuff. But let's not confuse this for grown up analysis. Microsoft releases their financials, like every publicly traded corporation. Bing search ads are a small part of revenu, about 5% of what Azure earns, and stable. Desktop ads are a vanishingly small line item. Mic…

You’re right that I’ve not backed some of the claims with objective financial analysis. I searched for annual reports, then went off to finishing the post, in the interest of time. I thought that it would take a long time to read the reports to find out the revenue broken down into various business segments instead of “Microsoft Search Network” bucket.

Furthermore, whether ad business is a 1/20th of Microsoft’s revenue, is by itself not an indicator. It’s still a 7 billion dollar business. That’s larger than a lot of successful companies. Apple’s services business has grown rapidly from 0% to the second largest source of revenue.

Microsoft, Adobe, etc are all aggressively trying to penetrate the ad market. Microsoft has failed to capitalize on IE/Edge or Bing, as much as it tried. Now, they’re hostile to privacy and have permeated their ad strategy to operating system level.

I don’t agree with you about Siri and Cortana. I was trying to say that Apple is leading the path, “lit the torch”, to become a privacy centric business. And they’re openly advertising their products with Privacy motifs. That’s what I see. It wasn’t about Cortana or Siri.

I’m glad I was able to entertain!

Edit: If you’d like a thorough analysis, I strongly suggest subscribing to Stratechery blog.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#69

Post by JoshTriplett » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:42 AM UTC

nroets wrote: post #16

jk3faster wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the alternative for average consumers ? Chrome books ? GNU/Linux! Any mainstream beginner friendly GNU/Linux distribution like Linux Mint or Ubuntu will be descent enough for average consumers. Unless you are heavily dependent on Adobe softwares(even then, you can consider dual boot), they are now much more elegant than windows. Getting quality support from forums is actually much easier with GNU/Linux. Las…

Yes, personally I dual boot Ubuntu and Windows. But the problem is that many organizations I deal with are reinforcing Microsoft dominance by e.g. emailing me PDFs that only Acroread can open. If I want to fight these issues, I may need to resort to name dropping (Google, Apple) and other tactics.

> emailing me PDFs that only Acroread can open

Please post any examples of those to the evince project as a bug report.

Re: Microsoft Advertisement Inc.

#70

Post by TomMarius » Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 10:42 AM UTC

apk-d wrote: post #15

zercurity wrote: post #7

We've been using this tool to strip out unwanted Microsoft 'features' such as Cortana. Its a powershell script you simply give it your Windows ISO and it lets you remove applications and services you don't wanted installed. It creates a really awesome Windows OS. I highly recommend it. https://github.com/DrEmpiricism/Optimize-Offline

Awesome! Any idea how well it deals with system updates? Last time I used a script to remove some of the crapware (OneDrive, games, office installers, etc) it all came back after a larger feature update.

These are basically OS reinstalls, there is a script capable of doing the same in live system