RIP I'm one of those people who go work at Google once every few years. The transformation of culture from about 2013 onwards has been somewhat sad to experience. Interestingly, most people who have been continuously employed there have not felt the very slight gradient. However, the changes in culture, freedom, food quality, etc are fairly obvious when one returns after ..say.. 18 months. Here are some semi-concrete…
which doors you are allowed to enter from is a security protocol... badging in for meals is for IRS tax purposes... The two things you facepalmed are absolutely easily explainable.
Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
411–420 of 600 posts
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The book" in this case starts with legal obligations under the Civil Rights Act, the Age Discrimination in Employment act, etc. A milquetoast 'well, I treat everyone equally' doesn't even come close.
How is treating people equally "not even close" to complying with those laws? I feel like I'm misreading to your comment, but it seems like treating people equally is exactly the point of those laws.
Or, to use an analogy, consider interviewing someone who, when asked about their preferences and strategies for ensuring code quality, answers "I just write correct code in the first place". Even if they're correct in that statement, that's not the sort of person you want in charge of that subject, because most people don't work like that, even if they wish they could.
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#413Earlier quoted context omitted.
And many companies unlike Google don't let you take food home. Or serve it very late, so you are working late. This is not the case at Google at all. The parent comment is so off the mark. These kind of posters have an image in their head from HN threads and keep propagating it in their comments.
To be fair to OP, I had the same image in my head before I joined. I probably wrote a similar comment at some point in the past, and propagated the misinformation myself. I worked for many years at an aerospace company, where we put in long hours for relatively little pay. I convinced myself that if a company offered its employees good perks, it must have a sinister motive. Of course, now there are constant stories o…
I found a good litmus test with how courteous people are, or aren’t, in the gym.
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#414Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#415First. Thanks to HN for not demanding phone numbers: anonymity allows to say things that cannot be said. Second. Many googlers read HN. In some sense, HN is the extension of the internal forums. CNBC made a good summary and I can comment on each bullet point. Larry and Brin probably stopped attending because nothing important is said on TGIFs. More people -> more leaks -> less interesting information -> less attenden…
The minefield about trying to predict what's going to be politically correct in the future is so true--you nailed it. You might carefully self-censor your discussions to things that are politically allowed today but everything lives forever, so something you say may fall out of fashion and years from now it could get you in hot HR water. The only solution is to just stick to work topics, really. The need for both current and forward self-censorship is very real.
The "bring your whole self to work" thing is actually kind of a trap. If you're politically aligned the correct way, then sure, you're welcome to bring your whole self to work and participate in political discussions. If you're a Trump supporter, for example, or don't buy in to the whole pronouns thing, then [it's kind of unspoken that] you're expected to please leave that whole self at home thankyouverymuch. Kind of a one way street.
I just come in to work and don't seek out political drama. It's totally optional. Besides the above future-PC worry, you really have to go out and look for trouble. For me, memegen is a place to read silly lighthearted memes and nothing more.
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
(fyi I really appreciate this thread of discussion, it's quite interesting) To your first point, this is only true if you're forced to participate. We have workplace social events, I sometimes choose not to participate. We have political arguments, I often disagree with the majority in those conversations. I simply don't engage when I'm not up for a debate. It's yet to be an issue. I'd agree that forcing people to ex…
(Agreed! I'm glad we're having it.) I don't think forced political expression is entirely a boogeyman. There was an article a couple months back[1] where a guy was publicly offended that (admittedly among other complaints) his coworkers weren't talking enough about police brutality. Anecdotally I have a lot of stories; for Hispanic Heritage Month, for example, we had Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez posters all around the of…
Sure, someone complained that people weren't knowledgable and up for debating an issue that was important to him. But notably, no one was forced to express anything, he was simply disappointed that they weren't willing to discuss the issue. Actually it wasn't even that, he was disappointed that, instead of expressing concern over the death of a black man, his coworkers were more concerned over how people were protesting[0]. No really, what he complained about was his coworker expressing this opinion:
> “These protestors aren’t going to solve anything, ” she said. ”Like, what are those people even trying to do? Seriously. What are they trying to do? Make people mad about getting stuck in traffic? Piss people off because they can’t get to Grand Central? It’s annoying . I just can’t stand it.”
I can see why that would be disappointing, but even still that disappointment is a far cry from forced political expression.
> When employees insisted that Kay Coles James must not be allowed on the AI advisory council[2], they didn't argue that having her would make Google do some particular evil thing. They argued that she's a mean person who holds the wrong political views, so Google must shun her.
But they did! There were other objections too, but one of the objections was specifically that James's values are directly contradictory to those that Google expresses, both in terms of diversity issues and in terms of AI.
> Not only are James’ views counter to Google’s stated values, but they are directly counter to the project of ensuring that the development and application of AI prioritizes justice over profit.
From the original petition. The thinking, which I broadly agree with, goes something like this: KCJ isn't an expert on AI. She's essentially a layperson, so her value on the ethics board would be as an ethics person, not as an AI person. Two of Google's AI ethics principles are "2. Avoid creating or reinforcing unfair bias." and "3. Be built and tested for safety.". KCJ appears to be comfortable using AI for military applications, arguably a violation of 3, and certainly doesn't care for avoiding bias towards trans people, a violation of 2. She didn't make any sense on the committee, and I'd argue that the followup made it clear that it was more meant to pander than to actually address issues.
> I'm a very strong Andrew Yang supporter, bumper sticker and pile of campaign swag and all, and I never bring it up in the workplace because I'm not there to do partisan politics.
Sure, and I don't generally bring up politics at work either. But that doesn't mean that I should deny other people, who are more directly affected by things, the ability to do so.
[0]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/zmjvy3/heres-the-memo-abo...
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine if wikipedia courted specific types of activists. People should take sides but companies should be neutral,and get out of the way of people engaging in political discourse or activism.
Wikipedia is chock full of activists
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, Google and GitHub built fantastic engineering departments with that decision, beating the pants off several companies that followed "common knowledge." It was (and still is) a cliche that you get better results by hiring like Google than by hiring like everyone used to hire. What they're now learning is that this decision is incompatible with certain forms of revenue like military or immigration-enforcement con…
This is historically revisionist. Google was a money-making behemoth with its tentacles in many areas of innovation before it became the politicized entity we know it to be today. Google only really became politicized a couple of years ago when certain media publications started making demands for diversity numbers within the organization and publicly shaming them for not meeting some imaginary bar in the area. Githu…
This is also historically revisionist. Google's been super political since forever, it just wasn't in the news for it.
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do you think that creativity requires emotional engagement? I haven't found that to be the case.
Personal experience, but it's also been born out by studies: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/creativity-the-art-a... https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-emotions-that-make-us-more-creat... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.0266... TL;DR: It's not the specific emotion that matters (indeed, there's evidence that having mixed emotions, where you can synthesize aspects of them, is crucial to creativ…
Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's no more political than it is to celebrate Cinco de Mayo or Saint Patrick's Day with a custom logo or easter egg.
A lot has changed in the US in a decade. Case in point: a person could make the above claim with a straight face now. ;) Obergefell v. Hodges was only four years ago. American conservatives are still trying to reverse gay marriage.