Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#151

Post by lawnchair_larry » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #127

acruns wrote: post #18

I turned down an offer from Google (cloud) because I didn't want to work for a company that was so focused on politics internally. This was just after they fired Damore, not that I agree or disagree with his opinion, but because Google seems promote internal fighting. That type of culture doesn't appeal to me.

Dude, it's OK to say you agree with him. He was well-intentioned, and was trying to fix an actual problem, that spaces created by men aren't necessarily as welcoming to women. That's not wrong, even if you disagree with his approach. He was crucified because he dared to suggest that differences exist between men and women in any meaningful way.

More than that, he was crucified for things he didn’t say, because nearly every blog and media outlet ran complete lies as their headline.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#152

Post by notJim » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

markovbot wrote: post #9

malvosenior wrote: post #5

I wonder if companies like Google and GitHub that actively courted activists are now regretting their decision. For a long time it was common knowledge that you would try to keep stuff like that out of the workplace. The past 10 years have been an about face to that strategy and now we're seeing more or less complete chaos internally at these previously pro-politics (some kinds of politics) workplaces. My guess is th…

To be clear, "keep politics out of the workplace" is another way of saying "I'm okay with the status quo, and if you don't like it I don't want to hear about it at work".

I'm curious about the actual arguments people are making. I could see a few, with most people arguing a mix of a couple:

1. People who politically disagree with the work the company is doing should just leave. They do not have the right to resist or organize against it.

2. Google should just go along with anything the government does. If there's an opportunity for profit, Google should pursue it. If employees disagree, they should vote. Otherwise, see #1.

3. Google should have some moral tests, but the current situation passes the test. It's not as bad as people are saying.

I honestly don't see how any of these are tenable. Number one is an argument against labor organizing in general, and the cats kind of out the bag there. Number two is just a variant of number one, and number three is inherently political—it's a situation where people see things differently, and the way we resolve those is politics.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#153

Post by lawnchair_larry » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #147

zozbot234 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if they're a leftist, liberal type, of course. Or even an adherent of a "preferred" or "protected" religion. These get to say racist, sexist, homophobic things all day long, and none of their fellow activists would bat an eye.

"White men ain't shit in tech" => no action taken despite being technically a CoC violation

What’s that from?

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#154

Post by weberc2 » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

amznthrowaway4 wrote: post #108

umeshunni wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Most moderates are fine with consequences for racism/sexism/etc, but we object to willfully misinterpreting one's political opponents as espousing racism/sexism/etc in order to justify their persecution. It's the weaponization of those consequences that we object to.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#155

Post by busterarm » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #146

manigandham wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it absolutely isn't. Adding an arbitrary and incendiary meaning to what others say is a major problem. You can create as many enemies as you want that way and it just fuels more division.

Pointing out the inherent privilege-preserving effects of discouraging challenge to the status quo is not adding an incendiary meaning. It's lifting a latent consequence to the level of manifest evidence. This understandably makes some people uncomfortable. It challenges beliefs, it challenges self-worth, it challenges value systems, it challenges worldviews. None of these invalidate the underlying concept that shelt…

If we work together, you should assume good faith. We are all on the same team at work. That's the point.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#156

Post by nostrademons » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #139

reaperducer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be creative and still act like a professional in a professional environment. One example is advertising agencies, which in the last century (in spite of what you see on popular television) were very button-up places but created cultural touchstones we still know today. (Edited to clarity I'm referencing ad agencies in the 20th century, not the SV-wannabe agencies a few have evolved into today.)

I wish I could bold this comment and pin it to the top. It's absolutely a false dichotomy to assert that there can either be creativity or there can be constraints. As a game developer, I look no further than the numerous game jams with artificial constraints as evidence that creativity can flourish within the confines of constraints. One might even argue that creativity is given constructive direction by way of cons…

I didn't say constraints, I said emotions.

I don't believe it's possible to have creativity without emotions, and I've got citations to that point (which are apparently quite controversial, that comment has been fluctuating heavily in score) [1].

It's possible to put constraints on your emotions and to not immediately do something because you feel like doing it. This is the essence of emotional intelligence, and of maturity. The thing is that this is a conscious process: you are expending your limited attention on watching your behavior and ensuring it conforms to the desired norms. (If you internalize those norms such that conformance is unconscious - well, then you've internalized the existing norms, but the point of creativity is that you're trying to break out of those unconsciously-internalized customs.) That means you're not expending that attention on the details of the problem itself. Most of the problems involved in revolutionizing an industry with computer code are immensely complex and require all the attention you can give them.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21548499

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#157

Post by zarkov99 » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

journalctl wrote: post #119

umeshunni wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

More like “anyone who says racist, homophobic, sexist things is probably a racist, homophobe, or sexist”.

Except if you disparage white, straight men, sight unseen. Then you are just virtuous.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#158

Post by vanniv » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:43 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #19

Nobody actively courted activists. It's more just than tech startups generally skew younger and newer generations want their companies to reflect their own values. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And these companies are not in complete chaos. In fact apart from the James Damore incident there hasn't been any significant change in the company cultures.

Google very much courted political activists in it's employee base, and encouraged its employees to participate in 'woke' culture.

All seemed great for a while, and then suddenly one day, management found itself the target of the woke cancel culture they fostered.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#159

Post by nemo44x » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #105

Nothing to see here. While most employees are chill, I would imagine Google has a disproportionation of hyper ideologists who are intolerant to different opinions and self-righteous to bring everything down to achieve personal validation. The trust is reduced, but it is both way, between employer and employees. Without that, any conversation is meaningless.

If you're an engineer at Google, you've probably had a great technical education, you feel empowered because if Google would hire you, you can assume most anyone else would too; you probably feel smart because of this and in many ways you probably are a pretty smart person. You're very well paid and compensated and you know it.

There are a lot of things here that not only give someone confidence but also conviction. As you rise up the social hierarchy, and a Google engineer is very high on the social hierarchy, you begin to question your beliefs less and less and have more conviction that you are right - you must be enlightened. Because if you're so awesome as to be an in-demand engineer (at Google!), clearly your opinions are more informed and enlightened than people below you on the social hierarchy. This conviction is going to grant you confidence to not only openly proclaim positions on topics most people find private, but use this newfound social power to leverage dominance over those subordinate to your leadership position in society.

How could you be wrong? Just look at how awesome you are - your expensive house, nice car, rare foods, and luxury recreation activities validate this. Lift your hammer of justice (it's a heavy burden you carry with the privilege's you were born to have) and smash any who your in-group find problematic. After all, it's only collateral damage if some honest, humble, and hard working people are destroyed in your wrath to feed your new, insatiable appetite for further social conquest.

Re: Google cancels TGIF weekly all-hands meetings

#160

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 9:46 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #109

reaperducer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be creative and still act like a professional in a professional environment. One example is advertising agencies, which in the last century (in spite of what you see on popular television) were very button-up places but created cultural touchstones we still know today. (Edited to clarity I'm referencing ad agencies in the 20th century, not the SV-wannabe agencies a few have evolved into today.)

My brother worked in ad agencies, and this is the opposite of what he said. Tons of drinking and just generally bad behavior which would only be tolerated in the worst silicon valley startups. He moved to the startup world because it has a healthier work culture.

We are surrounded by functional alcoholics (10% in the US drink most of the booze). They naturally tend toward career paths that support their behavior.