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The importance of decentralisation

ungleich.ch

91–100 of 137 posts

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#91
post #16

It's sort of an ongoing hobby of mine to study the forces of decentralization vs centralization. This article about decentralization does what many other evangelism articles do: talk about the ideals and benefits . However, I believed what's rarely discussed but more important is the economic forces that prevent decentralization from fulfilling the idealists' vision. Yes, decentralization will be in effect for niche…

Nature and Biology gives us a very strong counterexample to this. If centralization was the stable form you would expect to see an overwhelming preponderance of it. Instead you will almost always see a blend of centralized and decentralized forms, with a bias towards decentralization wherever it's a good fit. The vascular system is centralized; the nervous system is mostly federated; most of the rest is highly decent…

I would argue that there's an incredibly powerful force that drives the consolidation and centralization of systems in modern society: the wholly artificial legal concept of property. We are given a legal right to accumulate control over as large a swathe of material goods and organizational structures as we can within the confines of the law, and this ownership is backed by the promise of state violence should it be violated.

The concept of property, and the fact that our laws and government are built around protecting it, is the sole mechanism through which massive disparities in power are achieved and maintained in society. It centralizes wealth through avarice, making our stomachs unlimited in size. It also creates the dilemma of externalities, as we differentiate the value to us of the things we "own" versus the things we hold in common with others or that are "owned" by the state.

Property is also a entirely artificial concept. It takes the practical concept of use and possession and extends upon it to completely absurd extremes. It ties our society up in knots wasting a massive amount of human energy in the activity of determining and enforcing property ownership, and leads to incredibly convoluted structures in laws and markets, often leading to huge structural failures.

For instance, intellectual property law is completely absurd, on every level. It is an effort to force something that is fundamentally free and infinitely available to everyone to become scarce exclusively so that we can properly ensure it fits into a property-based system. The amount we lose as a society from the fact that all software is not simply open source is incalculable.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. Is the human body centralized or decentralized? The ego could be said to be the central "pivot" of the system, but then you have the phenomenon of "multiple personalities", and so on. Once you start to think of biology as the study of billion-year-old self-optimizing nanotechnology it makes sense to look to life for models for designing the structure of our own artificial systems. There's the question o…

> Are the distributed, self-organizing people of HK prevailing against the centralized imperialistic communist state? I think you make a good (and very underappreciated) point about the relevance of the ideas in this article to geopolitics, or how humanity ~chooses (or so we think) to organize itself. [didericis] also makes some good points that are relevant to this perspective: > Decentralized solutions are not sadd…

> The dangerous part imho when it comes to a geopolitical application is, while most of us can recognize the complexities and tradeoffs in a computer system, at least when they're pointed out to us, very few seem to be able to see similar complexities in geopolitics (a massively more complex system), even when it's pointed out. It's as if we've developed an intuition that passionately rejects the very suggestion, a behavior which in itself highlights the complexity involved.

Well, one of the fascinating things that anthropologists point out is that every society succeeds by-and-large in getting the children to behave like (that society's version of) adults. In other words, culture is somehow stable even though it gets renewed from generation to generation. So we are programmed in a way, and for that to work as well as it does, parts of the program have to remain stable, and that implies that the conscious ego cannot be allowed direct control over all parts of the internal model. And, in fact, there are only a few autonomous functions that are also (partially) subject to conscious control: breathing, blinking, and a third one that I just forgot... heh

In other words, the rigidity you're talking about is "works as intended" for the original context: small tribal groups living in the wild. What we call civilization is only about 12K years old, eh? With most of the action happening just in the last two or three centuries the complexities in geopolitics are entirely novel.

However, since about the 60's information about reprogramming ourselves has become more and more available (Just for example, "Programming & Metaprogramming in the Human Biocomputer: Theory & Experiments" by John C. Lilly was published in '67 I believe.) Rapid progress has been made, but a concerted effort to apply this information as part of an overall political shift has not arisen.

Bucky Fuller pointed out that we have the technological capability to create a kind of utopia, from my POV it seems we also have the psychological "technology" to get over our problems and actually do it.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my counter to these thoughts: Decentralized internet was not created by a myriad of decentralized decisions. A centralized authority came up with the idea and created TCP/IP. Just like centralized decisions were made to create the decentralized/balance of power democratic systems we have today. Capitalism itself is naturally centralizing. That is why we have anti-thrust laws. We don't just leave it to consume…

> Capitalism itself is naturally centralizing. That is why we have anti-thrust laws. We don't just leave it to consumers to make sure centralization does not happen in the market. It is the job of the government to prevent it. Centralized social systems such as Governments, Banks etc exist mostly because we need someone we trust (Bank) to arbitrate interactions between two peers, if you remove these kind of trust wit…

Simply not true.

Faith in cryptography will not help anyone with fraud, theft, and trust.

Naive neo-liberal libertarians and anarchocapitalists attempt to claim deregulation will just work because they've never encountered abuse, fraud, negligence, or read any history.

  One important point: if we actually include all 7 billion 
  people on the earth, most of whom have zero BTC or 
  Ethereum, the Gini coefficient is essentially 0.99+. And  
  if we just include all balances, we include many dust 
  balances which would again put the Gini coefficient at 
  0.99+. Thus, we need some kind of threshold here. The 
  imperfect threshold we picked was the Gini coefficient 
  among accounts with ≥185 BTC per address, and ≥2477 ETH 
  per address. So this is the distribution of ownership 
  among the Bitcoin and Ethereum rich with $500k as of July 
  2017.


  In what kind of situation would a thresholded metric like 
  this be interesting? Perhaps in a scenario similar to the 
  ongoing IRS Coinbase issue, where the IRS is seeking 
  information on all holders with balances >$20,000. 
  Conceptualized in terms of an attack, a high Gini 
  coefficient would mean that a government would only need 
  to round up a few large holders in order to acquire a 
  large percentage of outstanding cryptocurrency — and with 
  it the ability to tank the price.

  With that said, two points. First, while one would not 
  want a Gini coefficient of exactly 1.0 for BTC or ETH (as 
  then only one person would have all of the digital 
  currency, and no one would have an incentive to help boost 
  the network), in practice it appears that a very high 
  level of wealth centralization is still compatible with 
  the operation of a decentralized protocol. Second, as we 
  show below, we think the Nakamoto coefficient is a better 
  metric than the Gini coefficient for measuring holder 
  concentration in particular as it obviates the issue of 
  arbitrarily choosing a threshold.


  ...However, the maximum Gini coefficient has one obvious 
  issue: while a high value tracks with our intuitive notion 
  of a “more centralized” system, the fact that each Gini 
  coefficient is restricted to a 0–1 scale means that it 
  does not directly measure the number of individuals or 
  entities required to compromise a system.


  Specifically, for a given blockchain suppose you have a 
  subsystem of exchanges with 1000 actors with a Gini 
  coefficient of 0.8, and another subsystem of 10 miners 
  with a Gini coefficient of 0.7. It may turn out that 
  compromising only 3 miners rather than 57 exchanges may be 
  sufficient to compromise this system, which would mean the 
  maximum Gini coefficient would have pointed to exchanges 
  rather than miners as the decentralization bottleneck.


  Conversely, if one considers “number of distinct countries 
  with substantial mining capacity” an essential subsystem, 
  then the minimum Nakamoto coefficient for Bitcoin would 
  again be 1, as the compromise of China (in the sense of a 
  Chinese government crackdown on mining) would result in 
  >51% of mining being compromised.
  
  - Balaji S. Srinivasan (the CTO of Coinbase) 
https://news.earn.com/quantifying-decentralization-e39db233c...

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are the distributed, self-organizing people of HK prevailing against the centralized imperialistic communist state? I think you make a good (and very underappreciated) point about the relevance of the ideas in this article to geopolitics, or how humanity ~chooses (or so we think) to organize itself. [didericis] also makes some good points that are relevant to this perspective: > Decentralized solutions are not sadd…

> The dangerous part imho when it comes to a geopolitical application is, while most of us can recognize the complexities and tradeoffs in a computer system, at least when they're pointed out to us, very few seem to be able to see similar complexities in geopolitics (a massively more complex system), even when it's pointed out. It's as if we've developed an intuition that passionately rejects the very suggestion, a b…

Absolutely! I think a huge part of the problem is that we're saddled with all sorts of baggage from the structures of the past that constrain the ways we think and approach problems.

We have very rigid notions of the ways that laws should work, or property ownership.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#95
post #16

It's sort of an ongoing hobby of mine to study the forces of decentralization vs centralization. This article about decentralization does what many other evangelism articles do: talk about the ideals and benefits . However, I believed what's rarely discussed but more important is the economic forces that prevent decentralization from fulfilling the idealists' vision. Yes, decentralization will be in effect for niche…

Nature and Biology gives us a very strong counterexample to this. If centralization was the stable form you would expect to see an overwhelming preponderance of it. Instead you will almost always see a blend of centralized and decentralized forms, with a bias towards decentralization wherever it's a good fit. The vascular system is centralized; the nervous system is mostly federated; most of the rest is highly decent…

Arguably, the combination of centralized and decentralized parts ace much closer description to what the internet is today than the idea that it's solely centralized. Same is true of society; while the 20th and 21st century are replete with efforts to completely centralize society under one organization (there is the Party, only the Party, and nothing outside of the Party), such structures have consistently failed and collapsed. (Which does not stop people from continuing to propose them seriously, unfortunately.) Society is a mixture of centralized and decentralized elements.

The problem is that in biology, you don't have intelligent entities exploiting the centralization, which is I think where the metaphor breaks down.

Interestingly, the metaphor isn't completely broken; I have seen serious discussion of thing like cancer, and even more interestingly, what can convince a cell to not be cancer, in terms of self-interest and exploitation and such. One of the mysteries of how multi-cellular life ever got started was how one cell convinces another to not seek its own survival at all costs. Being rather complicated multicellular entities ourselves, we take this for granted, but it's a legit research topic.

Still, the cancer abusing the system is not doing it with human-level intelligence, whereas arguably Facebook is a super-human level intelligence, so the metaphor is not great.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#96
post #16

It's sort of an ongoing hobby of mine to study the forces of decentralization vs centralization. This article about decentralization does what many other evangelism articles do: talk about the ideals and benefits . However, I believed what's rarely discussed but more important is the economic forces that prevent decentralization from fulfilling the idealists' vision. Yes, decentralization will be in effect for niche…

Paul Krugman -- Increasing Returns and Economic Geography

> This paper develops a simple model that shows how a country can endogenously become differentiated into an industrialized "core" and an agricultural "periphery." In order to realize scale economies while minimizing transport costs, manufacturing firms tend to locate in the region with larger demand, but the location of demand itself depends on the distribution of manufacturing. Emergence of a core-periphery pattern depends on transportation costs, economies of scale, and the share of manufacturing in national income

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#97
post #16

It's sort of an ongoing hobby of mine to study the forces of decentralization vs centralization. This article about decentralization does what many other evangelism articles do: talk about the ideals and benefits . However, I believed what's rarely discussed but more important is the economic forces that prevent decentralization from fulfilling the idealists' vision. Yes, decentralization will be in effect for niche…

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and related market influences since entering the career world 20 years ago. It started around early 2000's, while working in market research. Got me thinking about all the money dumped into it being a waste... if people could just exchange information freely in some organized fashion. During 2000s - 2015s the corporations worked hard to form the scaffolding of, and then…

guess that should be s/\.// ...

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature and Biology gives us a very strong counterexample to this. If centralization was the stable form you would expect to see an overwhelming preponderance of it. Instead you will almost always see a blend of centralized and decentralized forms, with a bias towards decentralization wherever it's a good fit. The vascular system is centralized; the nervous system is mostly federated; most of the rest is highly decent…

I would argue that there's an incredibly powerful force that drives the consolidation and centralization of systems in modern society: the wholly artificial legal concept of property. We are given a legal right to accumulate control over as large a swathe of material goods and organizational structures as we can within the confines of the law, and this ownership is backed by the promise of state violence should it be…

>wholly artificial legal concept of property

Property is an informational concept more than a legal one. The concept of "mine" is present at a very young age, and clearly present in various animal groups. The data-structure is a simple association of objects with an owner, and for the substrate animals use only their brains, but humans use paper and, increasingly, bits. Banks and local government agencies keep the most official of these records, but informal records count too. (My son may think my daughter's blanket is his, but she will protest loudly and vehemently, and there is not really a formal reason for her claim).

concept of property...is the sole mechanism through which massive disparities in power are achieved and maintained

Property is a necessary, but insufficient condition for inequality. Property is how you keep score; the reason some players win far more than others is not entirely known, but I'm pretty sure it has more to do with personality, talent, and luck than the jurisprudence of property rights.

It's not clear what a society without property would be like, BTW.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#99

Sorry for the naive question but can anyone explain why hosting an IPv6-only server can help with decentralization? As a provider of some service, say you have a website where you publish some work, is there any advantage of setting it up as an IPv6 server?

Yes and no.

You can build centralization on every layer of the network stack. Facebook is centralization on the application layer. The problem is that with IP addresses being as rare as they are in the ipv4 space you have a lot of tricks that you need to use and ultimately you go through someone using a real ipv4 address.

Ipv6 doesn't have that, so it lets you decentralize further down the stack. While this is good in its own right, currently we don't have issues with ip address monopolies, unlike application layer monopolies.

And that's the problem we have. Doesn't matter how many open layers you have, someone can always build a closed system on top of them.

Re: The importance of decentralisation

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature and Biology gives us a very strong counterexample to this. If centralization was the stable form you would expect to see an overwhelming preponderance of it. Instead you will almost always see a blend of centralized and decentralized forms, with a bias towards decentralization wherever it's a good fit. The vascular system is centralized; the nervous system is mostly federated; most of the rest is highly decent…

I would argue that there's an incredibly powerful force that drives the consolidation and centralization of systems in modern society: the wholly artificial legal concept of property. We are given a legal right to accumulate control over as large a swathe of material goods and organizational structures as we can within the confines of the law, and this ownership is backed by the promise of state violence should it be…

The concept of property is highly important in terms of giving us a framework by which we can resolve conflicts over who has legitimate use or possession of things. Without the idea of property, you devolve into a might makes right scenario where the strong or sneaky can steal from anyone without recourse. That doesn't sounds like a society anyone would feel motivated or happy living in. Why try when someone can just steal away your hard work? It's why countries or communities that have gone down the road to socialism and communism have always invariably collapsed. Every anti-property proponent I have ever asked about where the vague lines of what counts as legitimate "use" or "possession" has never been able to provide a clear and consistent answer. Where does my use or possession end? For example, I trade two sheep for a bicycle which I need for transportation to get to my job. Can someone come along and take my bicycle any time I'm not using it? If so, how is this theft justified?

As a side note I'd like to add that I agree with your assessment of intellectual property. The arguments defending IP law are indeed weak, but when it comes to real things like money, goods, and land, property rights are a necessity to keep humanity from devolving to barbarism.

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