Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

sfgate.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 32 posts

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#11

Post by iujyhgftrgh »

ryandvm wrote: post #3
iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #2

Sony went corporate American. After the Betamax debacle it decided it would win the next format war by owning studios. That meant that anything it built for the consumer also had to be good for the studio. So for example it launched the excellent minidisk player (a 76Mb minifloppy) with better than MP3 quality when MP3 players were 32Mb for twice the price. But it refused to release the minidisk drives for computers,…

Sort of like how you can't do squat with music/movies on iOS unless it's through iTunes?

Not quite the same though - Apple setup iTunes to make it easier for iPod owners to use their product - and making Apple some money in the process.

They didn't decide to limit the iPod to 32Kb/s playback to protect sales of their CD players

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#12

Post by iujyhgftrgh »

WalterBright wrote: post #10
iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #2

Sony went corporate American. After the Betamax debacle it decided it would win the next format war by owning studios. That meant that anything it built for the consumer also had to be good for the studio. So for example it launched the excellent minidisk player (a 76Mb minifloppy) with better than MP3 quality when MP3 players were 32Mb for twice the price. But it refused to release the minidisk drives for computers,…

I bought an early Minidisk player (still have it), and you could record with it using ordinary line in RCA jacks. A microphone was not necessary. As a replacement for a cassette deck, it beat the pants off of it. Sadly, the copy protection on the disks (it wouldn't even let you do a bit copy of your own disk recordings) killed it.

Sorry I meant line in - the point was that you had to go the analog route because they wanted to restrict your use for their studio's sake.

If Sony had made a cheap PC drive that took minidisk it would have been as popular as floppies and been a real selling point for their PCs.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#13

Post by iujyhgftrgh »

Macsenour wrote: post #8

I think from a larger view, it has always been easy to beat SONY. SONY as a company doesn't care about the customer AFTER they have purchased the item. Look at ANY software that comes with a device, it's simply awful if it works at all. Even the PS3 has iffy UI. I had a fantastic device for recording for my podcast, but getting the recording OFF the machine was almost impossible. The last version, ver. 3.2, had menu…

Sony of the late 70s early 80s was different.

You don't remember how bad everyone else's industrial design and build quality was compared to Sony - it was like Audi or BMW in a world of Buicks.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#14

Post by glhaynes »

iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #13
Macsenour wrote: post #8

I think from a larger view, it has always been easy to beat SONY. SONY as a company doesn't care about the customer AFTER they have purchased the item. Look at ANY software that comes with a device, it's simply awful if it works at all. Even the PS3 has iffy UI. I had a fantastic device for recording for my podcast, but getting the recording OFF the machine was almost impossible. The last version, ver. 3.2, had menu…

Sony of the late 70s early 80s was different. You don't remember how bad everyone else's industrial design and build quality was compared to Sony - it was like Audi or BMW in a world of Buicks.

I feel like Sony hardware has almost always been really good and, for the most part, still is today. Sony software though... not so much. Which worked fine for decades where their products didn't include any software, but it puts them in a really bad place in a world where software quality has become at least as important as hardware quality. I don't know what I'd do if I were in charge of Sony, though - you can't just mandate "we're going to become great at software."

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#15

Post by jacquesm »

metageek wrote: post #5
iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #2

Sony went corporate American. After the Betamax debacle it decided it would win the next format war by owning studios. That meant that anything it built for the consumer also had to be good for the studio. So for example it launched the excellent minidisk player (a 76Mb minifloppy) with better than MP3 quality when MP3 players were 32Mb for twice the price. But it refused to release the minidisk drives for computers,…

Actually, I'm not sure they learned anything from Betamax. Other companies avoid format wars; Sony launches them, always hoping for license fees. Minidisc, ATRAC, Memory Stick, Digital8, UMD: all formats launched into crowded markets, usually with little or no advantage over the incumbents. (I thought Blu-Ray was an example, but a quick Wikipedia check says Blu-Ray was announced 2 months before the DVD Forum voted to…

Format wars are like the lottery. If you play often enough you might strike it lucky one day and that will make up for all the tickets you bought.

I can see why they keep playing, the odds are considerably better than in the lottery, even if the price of the tickets is higher.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#16

Post by pvg »

iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #2

Sony went corporate American. After the Betamax debacle it decided it would win the next format war by owning studios. That meant that anything it built for the consumer also had to be good for the studio. So for example it launched the excellent minidisk player (a 76Mb minifloppy) with better than MP3 quality when MP3 players were 32Mb for twice the price. But it refused to release the minidisk drives for computers,…

MiniDisc came out in '92, well before any portable MP3 players existed. MiniDisc recorders typically had optical digital inputs so you could get your albums on them from CD just fine.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#17

Post by ugh »

pvg wrote: post #16
iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #2

Sony went corporate American. After the Betamax debacle it decided it would win the next format war by owning studios. That meant that anything it built for the consumer also had to be good for the studio. So for example it launched the excellent minidisk player (a 76Mb minifloppy) with better than MP3 quality when MP3 players were 32Mb for twice the price. But it refused to release the minidisk drives for computers,…

MiniDisc came out in '92, well before any portable MP3 players existed. MiniDisc recorders typically had optical digital inputs so you could get your albums on them from CD just fine.

How widespread was optical digital out in 2001 compared to USB ports?

What mattered is whether it was easy to get pirated MP3s from the PC to the player. Fiddling around with optical digital out compared to the much simpler USB seems backwards.

MiniDisks might well have been superior to cassettes but compared to MP3 players? Ugh.

MiniDisks would have been pretty cool (at least for a short time) if you could have plugged them into a USB port.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#18

Post by threejay »

"Japan's very interesting. Some people think it copies things. I don't think that anymore. I think what they do is reinvent things. They will get something that's already been invented and study it until they thoroughly understand it. In some cases, they understand it better than the original inventor. Out of that understanding, they will reinvent it in a more refined second-generation version. That strategy works only when what they're working with isn't changing very much. The stereo industry and the automobile industry are two examples. When the target is moving quickly, they find it very difficult, because that reinvention cycle takes a few years. As long as the definition of what a personal computer is keeps changing at the rate that it is, they will have a very hard time. Once the rate of change slows down, the Japanese will bring all of their strengths to bear on this market, because they absolutely want to dominate the computer business; there's no question about that. They see that as a national priority. We think that in four to five years, the Japanese will finally figure out how to build a decent computer. And if we're going to keep this industry one in which America leads,we have four years to become world-class manufacturers. Our manufacturing technology has to equal or surpass that of Japan." - Steve Jobs 1985

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#19

Post by ugh »

Macsenour wrote: post #8

I think from a larger view, it has always been easy to beat SONY. SONY as a company doesn't care about the customer AFTER they have purchased the item. Look at ANY software that comes with a device, it's simply awful if it works at all. Even the PS3 has iffy UI. I had a fantastic device for recording for my podcast, but getting the recording OFF the machine was almost impossible. The last version, ver. 3.2, had menu…

The PS3 and the PSP both have a great UI, perfectly tuned to be used with their controllers.

Their new portable UI, though? An abomination.

Re: How Steve Jobs 'out-Japanned' Japan or out-Sony'ed Sony

#20

Post by pvg »

ugh wrote: post #17
pvg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MiniDisc came out in '92, well before any portable MP3 players existed. MiniDisc recorders typically had optical digital inputs so you could get your albums on them from CD just fine.

How widespread was optical digital out in 2001 compared to USB ports? What mattered is whether it was easy to get pirated MP3s from the PC to the player. Fiddling around with optical digital out compared to the much simpler USB seems backwards. MiniDisks might well have been superior to cassettes but compared to MP3 players? Ugh. MiniDisks would have been pretty cool (at least for a short time) if you could have plug…

My point was not to debate MiniDiscs but that just about everything the OP is using to support their argument is factually inaccurate. It's basically gibberish with a little ZOMG APPLE/IPHONE indignation morsel thrown in at the end.
Post reply on HN