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Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

shagunjhaver.com

141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#141
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The HN mods generally try to explain why they remove unacceptable comments, if the comment seems like it's from an actual person trying to participate. This is a good policy, thank you for doing it this way. Personally I feel that something along the lines of an explanation should also go with downvotes. When I'm downvoted, I would like some feedback on what people didn't like about my post -- do they think I was r…

People sometimes seem to think the purpose of the voting mechanism is to provide an objective evaluation of the quality of their contributions, or even their inherent value as a human being. It's not. The main purpose of the voting mechanism is to sort the responses within a thread, so that someone can skim a large comment section by reading only the first comments at each level of nesting. If it's working right, it…

> A downvote reasonably reflects the fact that it doesn't belong near the top of any list of the most interesting/relevant/accurate comments

Yes. But often it's not clear, and would be useful to know, whether it's the "interesting" or the "relevant" or the "accurate" part that was lacking. These are all along the lines of the categories that I mentioned. I do want to stress that I did not propose a "you are a worthless human being" category.

> Tom_mellior, I can't quickly find any heavily downvoted comments of yours.

It doesn't have to be heavy for the reason to be interesting. And for whatever it's worth, there is this one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21362694 where I was downvoted for explaining why I downvoted someone. This is OK, since the HN guidelines discourage discussions about voting. Still, I think some sort of "-1, ad hominem" feedback would have been useful for the original poster.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#142
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that even though the HN moderation tends to be more heavy handed, it's 100% beneficial for the community. However I doubt that the HN approach would scale well for a site like reddit— once you have dozens or hundreds of people doing moderation it gets hard to vet someone. Eventually you're gonna get a jerk moderator that goes on a power trip. I was a fan of how slashdot did "metamoderation" but I don't know i…

Could not disagree more; the community is an echo chamber because of how poorly dang treats dissent, and more importantly how easy it is to silence alternative viewpoints here. As a result, growth doesn't happen here, only self validation. Try taking a nuanced view on privacy if you disagree.

Can you be more specific about the “dissent” and the “nuanced view” parts?

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#143
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not disagree more; the community is an echo chamber because of how poorly dang treats dissent, and more importantly how easy it is to silence alternative viewpoints here. As a result, growth doesn't happen here, only self validation. Try taking a nuanced view on privacy if you disagree.

Can you be more specific about the “dissent” and the “nuanced view” parts?

People will flag a comment they don't like, hop on multiple accounts to spam downvotes, will downvote everything a person writes (via their comment history), all kinds of malicious behavior on HN if someone posts something they disagree with.

It doesn't take many of those people to ruin the experience for others, and dang doesn't lift a finger A) because he's of the opinion that disagreement amongst users is bad for HN and B) the software running HN is old and not sophisticated enough to detect bad actors.

I had to abandon my other account recently because I'd get hit with 10-15 downvotes in the span of 3-5 minutes, multiple times a day as I was using the site. Many hours of minimal activity and then boom, minus 15 karma, all at once, corresponding precisely with the number of comments I had that were votable (less than a day old).

Not sure how to describe a nuanced point of view though, it's a point of view that loses critical fidelity when generalized. If the generalization falls into the "dissent" bucket, it's then given the above treatment by bad actors on HN, which has the effect of only allowing a single specific viewpoint to exist on HN, because "flagged" messages aren't displayed at all, and downvoted comments are literally hard to read via fading.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#144
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about the “dissent” and the “nuanced view” parts?

People will flag a comment they don't like, hop on multiple accounts to spam downvotes, will downvote everything a person writes (via their comment history), all kinds of malicious behavior on HN if someone posts something they disagree with. It doesn't take many of those people to ruin the experience for others, and dang doesn't lift a finger A) because he's of the opinion that disagreement amongst users is bad for…

I meant specific about the content of your dissent.

Dissenting opinions are basically just different from the majority. Anarchist opinions are like this, vegan opinions are like this. Fascist opinions are also like this. Just saying it’s dissent is not too informative.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#145
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will flag a comment they don't like, hop on multiple accounts to spam downvotes, will downvote everything a person writes (via their comment history), all kinds of malicious behavior on HN if someone posts something they disagree with. It doesn't take many of those people to ruin the experience for others, and dang doesn't lift a finger A) because he's of the opinion that disagreement amongst users is bad for…

I meant specific about the content of your dissent. Dissenting opinions are basically just different from the majority. Anarchist opinions are like this, vegan opinions are like this. Fascist opinions are also like this. Just saying it’s dissent is not too informative.

Informative? Seems like you want to mitigate my theoretical dissent, to be honest...

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#146
post #137

Moderator of a large sub here. I hate removing content that violates our rules because of the pitch forks coming out. But it's like baseball and you're the ump. These are the rules, you broke the posted rules (and it's not wishy washy rules like /r/politics or /r/videos), and here's the rule you broke. Most of the time you don't have to eject anyone, but sometimes you do.

You shouldn't be in that position. You are a user, Reddit shouldn't out you in a position to have to do their job for them. At the very least, you should get a cut of the ad revenue your sub brings in. No technical reason they couldn't do that, and it would incentivize you to behave, as well.

Well I enjoy the topic I moderate so that's why I do it.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#147
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be in that position. You are a user, Reddit shouldn't out you in a position to have to do their job for them. At the very least, you should get a cut of the ad revenue your sub brings in. No technical reason they couldn't do that, and it would incentivize you to behave, as well.

Well I enjoy the topic I moderate so that's why I do it.

How does the power you have over people who are otherwise identical to you play into it?

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#148
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant specific about the content of your dissent. Dissenting opinions are basically just different from the majority. Anarchist opinions are like this, vegan opinions are like this. Fascist opinions are also like this. Just saying it’s dissent is not too informative.

Informative? Seems like you want to mitigate my theoretical dissent, to be honest...

Whether I'd want to migitate it is entirely based on the content of your dissent. That's my point really.

There's all kinds of dissent which should absolutely be moderated away on a forum like HN.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#149
post #28
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noone likes to be corrected without an explanation. That part is fine. But explaining takes time for the moderators as well as providing value to the user, and some users try to get past moderation by overwhelming the moderators. Spamming.

The automated removal can also come with broad reasoning in response, and that doesn't overwhelm the system. "Violating Policy X" (where X can be something like Twitter's Rules, not necessarily something specific) is still a terrible explanation, but isn't nothing either. Vague enough spammers can't use it to game the system, specific enough that user's can guess they did something wrong.

I disagree that this is any better, because terms can be so wide as to not have any meaning

E.g. i was blocked from facebook rencently and all it said is "you are inelligible, refer to our terms", but reading through them doesn't help at all

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#150
post #149
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The automated removal can also come with broad reasoning in response, and that doesn't overwhelm the system. "Violating Policy X" (where X can be something like Twitter's Rules, not necessarily something specific) is still a terrible explanation, but isn't nothing either. Vague enough spammers can't use it to game the system, specific enough that user's can guess they did something wrong.

I disagree that this is any better, because terms can be so wide as to not have any meaning E.g. i was blocked from facebook rencently and all it said is "you are inelligible, refer to our terms", but reading through them doesn't help at all

If it isn't "specific enough the user can guess what they did", like in your case, then it's a clear failure. So is a lack of a transparent appeal process.

Automation-assisted, not automation everything.

I wasn't advocating for blanket terms that mean nothing. You need to provide the user with something meaningful.

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