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One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

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Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#441

Post by manfredo »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #416
dannypgh wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He misapplied science to make a point that's not supported by science, so that he could try to argue he's talking science. I'm not sure whether it was out of malice or just poor scientific reason. As the most base example: the candidate pool for a company like Google is self-selecting. Taking research about women (which I'm accepting uncritically just for the sake of argument in this post) as a population (research w…

> He misapplied science to make a point that's not supported by science Perhaps other Google employees should have responded with "You appear to be making a flawed argument. Here's where we think your argument goes off the rails, and why." Assuming Damore was arguing in good faith, such a response might have changed the minds of Damore or other like-minded employees. But simply firing Damore was at best a missed oppo…

Keep in mind that the majority of googlers according to a blind poll did not want him fired. Also the memo was circulated for a month internally. Damore didn't get fired until it was leaked to to media and they ran hit pieces that ranges from intellectually dishonest to outright dishonest. I put the blame for this fiasco on the highly slanted media coverage that put Google in a position where they had to fire Damore or get skewered for sexism.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#442

Post by manfredo »

flatb wrote: post #380
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch... >Damore said that those differences include women generally having a stronger interest in people rather than things, and tending to be more social, artistic, and prone to neuroticism (a higher-order personality trait) Imagine thinking that you can literally publish and circulate several revisions of an internal company memo telling 50% of your coworkers…

> Imagine thinking that you can literally publish and circulate several revisions of an internal company memo telling 50% of your coworkers that they should be paid less because they're genetically inferior to you in regards to the job

This is an outright fabrication. Nowhere did Damore write that women should be paid less, or that they were genetically inferior at tech. He said that gender differences can explain, in part, difference in preferences between men and women.

Is it sexist to say "hey, maybe 95% of kindergarten teachers are women not because men are discriminated against, but because men don't prefer to work with young kids at the same rate as women due to innate biological reasons."

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#443

Post by manfredo »

flatb wrote: post #427
dekken_ wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see it because it's not there. People make these leaps of fiction on their own from usually well meaning but confused stances.

No, it's not there, it's on the memo itself, in his own words, in a section literally titled "Non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech" if you'd like a more reliable source than Wikipedia. >Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness. This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Do you see it? Th…

No, it does not say that women should be paid less than men. It says that just because there are differences in average pay between men and women there isn't necessarily discrimination. And he offers suggestions to help close this gap later on in the memo.

Yes, your are making an unsubstantiated leap from what was actually written to claiming that Damore write that his female coworkers should be paid less than men for the same work.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#444

Post by username90 »

flatb wrote: post #427
dekken_ wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see it because it's not there. People make these leaps of fiction on their own from usually well meaning but confused stances.

No, it's not there, it's on the memo itself, in his own words, in a section literally titled "Non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech" if you'd like a more reliable source than Wikipedia. >Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness. This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Do you see it? Th…

He said it was a possible explanation, not that it was necessarily true or that the current situation is fair. The memo was a response to the very common fallacy "Women are underrepresented in X, this is proof that women are discriminated against".

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#445

Post by MockObject »

fareesh wrote: post #300
mason55 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can believe X, I can believe Y, and both of us believe Z, but XYZ doesn’t have anything to do with doing our jobs so we shouldn’t let it prevent us from doing our jobs. It's easy to say this if your coworker likes football and you think sports are dumb. But what if your coworker likes attending KKK rallies and you're African-American? Or your co-worker is out there on the weekend holding signs that say "Death t…

> But what if your coworker likes attending KKK rallies and you're African-American? Or your co-worker is out there on the weekend holding signs that say "Death to Gays" and you just happen to be gay? What's the solution for the people in your country who are attending these rallies and holding up these signs? This boycott model of employment will eventually have them fired from minimum wage jobs too. So where would…

> Broadly though I'm finding it difficult to reconcile the prospect of someone exceptional who is working at a top tech company, with someone whose intelligence is low enough to advocate outright racism or bigotry.

It's simple if the threshold for racism and bigotry is driven low enough that it ends up including the private beliefs of most of the country and even more of the world.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#446

Post by dekken_ »

flatb wrote: post #427
dekken_ wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see it because it's not there. People make these leaps of fiction on their own from usually well meaning but confused stances.

No, it's not there, it's on the memo itself, in his own words, in a section literally titled "Non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech" if you'd like a more reliable source than Wikipedia. >Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness. This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Do you see it? Th…

It is a leap on your part.

Statistics are all we have to go on in this regard, and they are in Damore's favor.

The truth is not bigoted.

"White men can't jump" is generally true.

Personality traits are like most things on a spectrum, and women tend to have less of the traits which have until now been perceived to be necessary for "negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading"

There are leaders that are women, see AMD.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#447

Post by manfredo »

flatb wrote: post #424
el_cujo wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your characterization of things makes it sound like you only read headlines and never the memo. Which is fine I guess, but it seems silly to have such strong opinions about something without looking into it at all.

Have YOU read it? Jesus Christ. > Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness. This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Yes, that does say that women are genetically worse leaders and implies that their lower salaries are at least in part because they are naturally worse negotiators. The whole…

> Yes, that does say that women are genetically worse leaders and implies that their lower salaries are at least in part because they are naturally worse negotiators.

No it does not. It says that women are more agreeable and less assertive, on average. And because Google rewards assertiveness, this means women have a harder time negotiating salaries at Google. In a workplace the prioritizes agreeableness over assertiveness, women would be at an advantage. And later in the memo he says Google should better reward agreeableness.

It does not claim "women are genetically worse leaders". This is a fabrication.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#448

Post by askafriend »

high_derivative wrote: post #212
askafriend wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this does is ensure only mediocre people are hired. What you described is how you might hire for McDonald’s, not a high growth company that is building something massive/valuable. I work with a group of the most talented people in the world at what they do and 0 of them would want to work in an environment you describe. In fact they won’t even consider a company remotely like what you describe.

I think that is a fantasy stemming from the idea that everyone who is talented and intelligent must basically agree with you politically. The world does not work like that. Talent comes in many shapes and forms. I know many people, myself included, at FAANG jobs who would love for a less political environment.

This isn’t about agreeing or disagreeing politically.

Did you read what he wrote?

Their HR is combing through private social media profiles and rejecting everyone who shows any signs of dissent towards anything. What kind of employees do you think are being filtered out in that process? Exactly. The best and brightest.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#449

Post by helen___keller »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #430
helen___keller wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People holding the majority view are publicly cheered by the company, but people holding minority views are (at best) tolerated May I have a specific example? There appears to be a lot of negative opinions about this kind of workplace based on the comments (and my downvotes on some of my comments haha). I'm just trying to understand it. If you're curious, you can see a specific example from my workplace in the edit…

Thanks for the substantive discussion! > May I have a specific example? I can't without giving out too much detail. I shouldn't have stated that without being able to provide substance, sorry. > It is not disrespectful for the employer to celebrate other employees who are homosexual. Am I misunderstanding? I think we're getting close to the fundamental issue here. Let me unpack my logic a bit: 1) Celebrating behavior…

I can agree with your logic, in particular with one additional axiom:

3) an employer can respect employees religious views only if they will not imply the religious view is in error

It's clearly (from your logic) the case that employers description of "respects" violates axiom (3). If you belong to one of the sects in question I can understand being upset, but I would argue that (given the breadth of beliefs in the world) it is impossible to not imply some employees "respected" belief is wrong.

So perhaps this is the point, that employers should not claim to respect beliefs because they necessarily must act inconsistently while doing so. Thus, one might conclude, a workplace should stand for nothing in particular and thus allow employees to believe anything without celebrating or respecting it.

However, I wouldn't agree with this conclusion. I would rather that my employers tries the best possible at the (futile) task of being respectful and celebratory to all, and if problems are raised they try to be concluded with minimal conflict and maximum respect.

In fact, I'd claim this the common sense approach. This is how I resolve having friends with non-identical belief sets, for example.

(An example: one coworker made a joke to the expense of astrology. A different coworker chimed in that she and others adhered to astrology and found this joke offensive. The original coworker offered an apology and all was well.)

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#450

Post by [deleted] »

dekken_ wrote: post #446
flatb wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not there, it's on the memo itself, in his own words, in a section literally titled "Non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech" if you'd like a more reliable source than Wikipedia. >Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness. Also, higher agreeableness. This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. Do you see it? Th…

It is a leap on your part. Statistics are all we have to go on in this regard, and they are in Damore's favor. The truth is not bigoted. "White men can't jump" is generally true. Personality traits are like most things on a spectrum, and women tend to have less of the traits which have until now been perceived to be necessary for "negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading" There are leaders that…

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