One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions • Hacker News Board

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#411

Post by FpUser » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #267

cptskippy wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being fired from Google amounts to not just losing a job but "friends" and the only people who the company encouraged socializing with. I've never worked for Google so I have no basis for comparison but it's very common across white collar jobs for employees social circles to very closely if not entirely overlap with work. Unless you participated in extracurricular activities that weren't school sponsored, you prob…

The growing epidemic of loneliness is probably in part due to the rise of teleworking. No longer do people grab a drink after work. Well, it can go either way. Depends on your situation. For me, teleworking has been a help to my social life. Now that I'm a teleworker, I've got about 10 extra hours of time each week that I don't have to spend commuting. So that actually has benefits for my social life, since I never r…

Same here. While I did make some friends through work generally work is far from being The Source. Last time I had to go to work full time for someone else was 20 years ago so obviously my social life is totally unrelated to work as far as I am concerned.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#412

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #388

kelnos wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's both what you and the parent are saying. People in the younger generation (myself somewhat included in that) do feel extra entitlement toward saying what they want, when they want, in whatever forum they want. But it's a lot harder nowadays to keep one's personal and professional lives completely separate. I'd lean toward considering this trend a good thing; we don't work in a vacuum. Activism absolutely…

> making judgments about the parent's values is a bit out of line. Some people really do just want to go to the office, put in a full day of work, and go home where their "real" life happens. My impression, from working in one of these progressive workplaces, is that nobody is forced to interject or defend their personal opinions, or be a part of those discussions at all. Indeed, just as we have employees bringing th…

I too work in one of these "progressive" workplaces. On political / social matters, I sometimes have an opinion that differs from the one that the company (very vocally) advertises.

People holding the majority view are publicly cheered by the company, but people holding minority views are (at best) tolerated.

This frustrates me on several levels:

- There's no room for debate on these topics. The official company position is treated as so obviously correct that a reasoned debate on the matters is treated as unnecessary, or even worse, immoral. I find this insulting.

- The company / majority position seems to be self-contradictory. E.g., they promote LGBTQ behavior as praiseworthy, which implies that certain religions' teachings about sexual ethics are factually incorrect. But the company also claims to respect people's religious choices.

These leave me with the impression that the employer is hypocritical and/or disingenuous.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#413

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #193

mindslight wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you no longer have to be tolerated by anyone adhering to it. The point of tolerance is to tolerate . Just because you have managed to find an intolerant viewpoint that survives our current memetic filter, does not change the reality that you're the one preaching intolerance, right here . Hate movements throughout history have been supported by logical-sounding arguments for marginalizing some outgroup. I don't thin…

Being intolerant of intolerance is the only way to foster a tolerant society. It's the solution to the Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

People regularly quote that Wikipedia article as if it proves something, somehow ignoring the fact that it lists a number of arguments against Popper's conclusion.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#414

Post by beerandt » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:33 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #134

beerandt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been years now since "don't be evil" got deleted.

The cultures of companies change as they grow and as outside cultures change. Especially one closely connected to internet culture, which is way more uncivil and uncompromising against dissenting opinions.

I don't have a problem with that. And I didn't even really mean that to be any sort of judgement. It's just a little difficult to convey that, given the phrase involved.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#415

Post by FpUser » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

dghughes wrote: post #303

cptskippy wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being fired from Google amounts to not just losing a job but "friends" and the only people who the company encouraged socializing with. I've never worked for Google so I have no basis for comparison but it's very common across white collar jobs for employees social circles to very closely if not entirely overlap with work. Unless you participated in extracurricular activities that weren't school sponsored, you prob…

> Being fired from Google amounts to not just losing a job but "friends" and the only people who the company encouraged socializing with. That's something I experienced. I was laid off after 15 years and really I was laid off from my friends too. The company even monitored social media accounts which at the time seemed bizarre but now it's common. I was told by someone still working there HR declared unfriending a fe…

" I was told by someone still working there HR declared unfriending a fellow employee was considered bullying."

Would not go into detail but in my past I've encountered some peculiar things that HR was trying to impose on employees. I just told them to sod off and keep me away from their kindergarten. The HR person I talked to was sort of shocked but they did leave me alone. No actions were taken. They just asked me not to promote my view among other employees which I was not interested with anyways.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#416

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #387

reroute1 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally wrong, his arguments were from the current era of science and not racist. They weren't even close to that.

He misapplied science to make a point that's not supported by science, so that he could try to argue he's talking science. I'm not sure whether it was out of malice or just poor scientific reason. As the most base example: the candidate pool for a company like Google is self-selecting. Taking research about women (which I'm accepting uncritically just for the sake of argument in this post) as a population (research w…

> He misapplied science to make a point that's not supported by science

Perhaps other Google employees should have responded with "You appear to be making a flawed argument. Here's where we think your argument goes off the rails, and why."

Assuming Damore was arguing in good faith, such a response might have changed the minds of Damore or other like-minded employees.

But simply firing Damore was at best a missed opportunity, and at worst evidence that the majority view is simply a matter of opinion with no real justification.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#417

Post by harambaebae69 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

x220 wrote: post #221

nearbuy wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Larry Page and Sergey Brin ... had designed their company's famously open culture to facilitate free thinking. Employees were “obligated to dissent” if they saw something they disagreed with, and they were encouraged to “bring their whole selves” to work rather than check their politics and personal lives at the door. Seems like James Damore took their advice.

Yes. Google told people that they have a free thinking culture. That does not mean they have a free thinking culture.

There's some quote (I thought it was Peter Thiel but can't find it now) along the lines of "when they mention how important diversity is, ask them how many conservatives there are" at silicon valley tech companies.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#418

Post by TwoHeadedBeast » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #304

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that human beings are the most important thing. American here: I strongly agree. And I don't like giving more power to corporations. They have too much already, and I believe that strong labor movements are one way to fight this. Still, I just... would never f…

There's a difference between using the computer and expecting privacy on it. It's entirely possible that you're not supposed to use certain equipment for personal use, but if you do it anyway, that doesn't erode your right to privacy. I'm not saying this is always the case in the EU, though. Obviously there is equipment where for many reasons it's absolutely vital that you don't use it for anything personal. I'm not…

That's interesting. I did work for a company, that had itself registered as a certificate authority on the computer's browser, and for most sites, e.g. Wikipedia, it would use its own certificates and presumably monitor what you were looking at, but for internet banking, it didn't intefere.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#419

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #391

JohnBooty wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, here's his original essay. https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversity...

All the essay shows is that your representation of his beliefs is obviously false.

Damore's essay seems to be a kind of Rorschach test. People sympathetic to Damore's views (or at least, to his approach to debate) seem to trust that he's arguing in good faith. People strongly opposed to his views seem to think he's being disingenuous.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#420

Post by helen___keller » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:48 PM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #412

helen___keller wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making judgments about the parent's values is a bit out of line. Some people really do just want to go to the office, put in a full day of work, and go home where their "real" life happens. My impression, from working in one of these progressive workplaces, is that nobody is forced to interject or defend their personal opinions, or be a part of those discussions at all. Indeed, just as we have employees bringing th…

I too work in one of these "progressive" workplaces. On political / social matters, I sometimes have an opinion that differs from the one that the company (very vocally) advertises. People holding the majority view are publicly cheered by the company, but people holding minority views are (at best) tolerated. This frustrates me on several levels: - There's no room for debate on these topics. The official company posi…

> People holding the majority view are publicly cheered by the company, but people holding minority views are (at best) tolerated

May I have a specific example?

There appears to be a lot of negative opinions about this kind of workplace based on the comments (and my downvotes on some of my comments haha). I'm just trying to understand it.

If you're curious, you can see a specific example from my workplace in the edit region here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21524930

I've never personally had a bad experience from being in a "progressive" workplace. I don't agree with them on everything, but in general I've never had a bad experience. The "social justice" aspect is pretty opt-in, so I don't know what could lead to a negative experience such as being less than tolerated.

> The company / majority position seems to be self-contradictory. E.g., they promote LGBTQ behavior as praiseworthy, which implies that certain religions' teachings about sexual ethics are factually incorrect. But the company also claims to respect people's religious choices.

I don't really see the contradiction. My work celebrates employees by giving us catered lunches that often include pork but nobody perceives that as being anti-muslim, as long as there are non-pork choices. The vegetarians and vegans don't mind meat on the table as long as there are vegetarian and vegan choices.

A subset of teachings from a subset of Christian faiths will say something like "[homosexuality] is an abomination". It would be disrespectful to employee's religion (and common sense) for the employer to tell their employees they must be homosexual. It is not disrespectful for the employer to celebrate other employees who are homosexual. Am I misunderstanding?