One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions • Hacker News Board

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#401

Post by el_cujo » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

flatb wrote: post #380

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch... >Damore said that those differences include women generally having a stronger interest in people rather than things, and tending to be more social, artistic, and prone to neuroticism (a higher-order personality trait) Imagine thinking that you can literally publish and circulate several revisions of an internal company memo telling 50% of your coworkers…

Your characterization of things makes it sound like you only read headlines and never the memo. Which is fine I guess, but it seems silly to have such strong opinions about something without looking into it at all.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#402

Post by leftyted » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #378

leftyted wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My empoyer doesn't have a lot of power over me. I'm a programmer not a coal miner. I don't want to be in a union. I don't want to join some club. I don't want to pay dues. I don't want to read newsletters or listen to speeches or be involved at all in the grubby, underhanded manuevering for power that would come with a union. And I'm tired of people condescendingly telling me that I'm wrong for feeling this way. I'm…

You can feel however you want about power, about not joining a union, about not paying dues, but the employer always has more power than the employee; they pay you a small fraction of the value you produce for them, you collect a paycheck at their leisure, and they can replace you more easily than you can find another job. The employer has a workforce and resources at their disposal, you bring to the table only your…

> You can feel however you want about power, about not joining a union, about not paying dues, but the employer always has more power than the employee; they pay you a small fraction of the value you produce for them, you collect a paycheck at their leisure, and they can replace you more easily than you can find another job.

"Balance of power between labor and management" doesn't mean 50:50. It means the employee has some leverage.

The employer should have more power than the employee. Just like the president should have more power than the citizen, the general should have more power than the private, and the parent should have more power than the child. Power differentials are necessary.

> The employer has a workforce and resources at their disposal, you bring to the table only your time. You can eschew unions all you want, but it's simply untrue to state that "a union is no more pure than management."

Unions are pure when they are correcting an imbalance of power. They're corrupt when they're are accumulating power for its own sake.

> I'm sorry you feel condescended to to be told this, presumably yet again. Perhaps we can find a way to preserve your feelings, because condescension isn't my intent; I'm just trying to address a century's worth of anti-union propaganda.

After reading this paragraph, I have a really hard time believing that condescension isn't your intent. I don't think "unions are bad," I think they are a valid tool to correct power imbalances but they're just a tool, sometimes there is no power imbalance, and a union for programmers is a terrible idea.

> By the way, labor organizing is significantly harder than volunteering at a soup kitchen. In the past, employers have hired private armies (the Pinkertons, etc) to attack and kill labor organizers; these days, despite it being illegal, employers often fire workers for legally-protected labor organizing activity. No one's being fired from a soup kitchen.

Yeah, we've all heard the stories about Google putting out hits on dissident employees.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#403

Post by dekken_ » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

akavi wrote: post #385

flatb wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch... >Damore said that those differences include women generally having a stronger interest in people rather than things, and tending to be more social, artistic, and prone to neuroticism (a higher-order personality trait) Imagine thinking that you can literally publish and circulate several revisions of an internal company memo telling 50% of your coworkers…

I'm not sure I see any part of that quote even suggesting "50% of your coworkers... should be paid less because they're genetically inferior to you". And regardless of the correctness of firing him, him getting fired is a little stronger than "people tell[ing him] that [he's] kind of a dick".

You don't see it because it's not there.

People make these leaps of fiction on their own from usually well meaning but confused stances.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#404

Post by dekken_ » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

el_cujo wrote: post #401

flatb wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch... >Damore said that those differences include women generally having a stronger interest in people rather than things, and tending to be more social, artistic, and prone to neuroticism (a higher-order personality trait) Imagine thinking that you can literally publish and circulate several revisions of an internal company memo telling 50% of your coworkers…

Your characterization of things makes it sound like you only read headlines and never the memo. Which is fine I guess, but it seems silly to have such strong opinions about something without looking into it at all.

Ignorant opinions are usually the strongest.

Dunning/Kruger etc

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#405

Post by tzs » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

rhodysurf wrote: post #328

matthewmacleod wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, though, that politics is inherently tied up in actions related to the workplace. Let’s say one of your colleagues or managers occasionally makes decisions that would be frowned upon by some people. Maybe you’re recruiting, and they let slip that they passed over a female candidate because they thought she might have a child soon. Or maybe they passed on a gay man because they didn’t think he should be…

Those examples are not really political, but they are illegal.

The second example, employment discrimination against a gay person, is only illegal in the US in around 20 states. The other states do not include sexual orientation in their anti-discrimination laws, nor is it covered under Federal law.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#406

Post by myga » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #6

> " the other tracked the individual calendars of staff working in the community platforms, human resources, and communications teams, she said. The tracking had made the staff in those departments feel unsafe, the spokeswoman said. [...] The suspensions have been a hot topic of discussion at the company in the last week, stoking anger among some workers and prompting claims that Google is punishing people who have t…

> It seems incredible that any Google employees would be upset that somebody was fired for what amounts to stalking other employees.

Why? Half of Google's business model is stalking people, it has to be normalized behavior among employees.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#407

Post by ccsnags » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

2sk21 wrote: post #311

aedron wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 20 years experience under my belt, it is my firm belief that the workplace is not a place to discuss politics, religion, or other highly personal and divisive issues. Obviously, this extends even more to the workplace itself bringing these topics up. I'm not aggressive or even obvious about this disposition, I just gently steer clear of violating it. I feel the same should apply to companies, fine if you want to…

Completely agree - the workplace is not a family and (mostly) not a group of friends.

Even back in my military days, there was a clear difference between people I had to work with and my military family. Living in close proximity forces people to set boundaries and respect others. Plus, if a political discussion got physical or out of control, remedial training for all parties involved.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#408

Post by el_cujo » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

vianneychevalie wrote: post #226

rajacombinator wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank god they kept all those spies from stealing that primo Google+ IP ...

Hindsight is 20/20, but Google+'s plan (circles of friend) is the current situation of social networks. People communicate selectively with circles of friends through iMessage, WhatsApp, Snapchat groups, selective Instagram accounts, etc. So Google+'s IP could have been very valuable

I remember at the time of its release, social media was pretty monolithic as well. All of my friends at the time thought it was a joke that the search engine company was trying to ape Facebook. Twitter was big, sure, but nobody I knew had one for socializing with people they knew, mostly just for following celebrities or news personalities. These days, Snap Chat, Instagram, and others have opened the field up more, so maybe if it had been released in that age people would have been more open to giving it a shot. Then again, it feels like privacy is much more in the zeitgeist, so maybe the idea of giving google access to even more of your life would be more laughable than it was previously.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#409

Post by Apocryphon » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

underpand wrote: post #81

dustingetz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems less about Google and more about the balance of power shifting towards tech workers over the tech employer

Unfortunately, it's mostly non-eng and colorful SREs who are representing the supposed "tech worker" in these politically charged movements if you cross-reference the names that appear in public articles with LinkedIn profiles.

What makes those types of people less necessary tech workers than other types of tech workers?

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#410

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

Hitton wrote: post #248

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #208

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights. Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intell…

Funny thing is, that although Google boasts about its racial and gender diversity, there is preciously little ideological diversity. And once people stray, they must be purged.

[deleted]