One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions • Hacker News Board

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#201

Post by mkohlmyr » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #13

xhkkffbf wrote: post #3

I've liked many things about Google over the years and I still admire many parts of their stack. But this crazy internal political culture is bound to end in a big kaboom and it looks like this might be it. Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. Google has skirted this rule for some time but now it's not going to be pretty.

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business This 'rule' is a purely artificial construct encouraged to ensure the common employees keep their heads down and let those in charge continue screwing over them and/or society. The history of organized labor involves no less than straight murder of labor activists by company owners.

Neat. Yes there are legitimate cases in which politics should certainly enter the workplace (legitimate labour disputes definitely being among these). These are disputes that are more or less employees versus employers.

But I don't see how anyone can reasonably make the case that (much of) the recent political activism at Google has been an example of defending general workers rights against abuses. It seems more like an attempt to push group politics (the group in question not representing the viewpoint or interests of all employees) onto an institution.

As a rule of thumb, if the idea of the opposite side of your stance doing the same thing, with the same tactics, makes you feel uneasy - you might think twice about setting the precedence.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#202

Post by cousin_it » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:02 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #12

hliyan wrote: post #4

Sometimes, people problems can't be solved by technological means. Sometimes you just have to talk to people. A while back I was contemplating introducing a small app for team members to express sentiments (whether they're feeling stressed, satisfied, unappreciated, worried etc), but I eventually decided that nothing beats a private conversation.

The theory behind managers soliciting anonymous comments from workers is that this cuts through preference falsification. Preference falsification is when somebody lies about their beliefs or opinions, often due to perceived social pressure or lack of trust. Preference falsification is a real problem, not just in business settings but throughout the broad domain of human interaction. Unfortunately soliciting anonymou…

There's a deeper problem: anonymous commenting doesn't prevent tactical commenting, in the same way that anonymous voting doesn't prevent tactical voting (Gibbard-Satterthwaite theorem).

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#203

Post by int_19h » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:03 AM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #193

mindslight wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you no longer have to be tolerated by anyone adhering to it. The point of tolerance is to tolerate . Just because you have managed to find an intolerant viewpoint that survives our current memetic filter, does not change the reality that you're the one preaching intolerance, right here . Hate movements throughout history have been supported by logical-sounding arguments for marginalizing some outgroup. I don't thin…

Being intolerant of intolerance is the only way to foster a tolerant society. It's the solution to the Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Being intolerant of intolerant actions is what is necessary to maintain a tolerant society. If you tolerate intolerant views, the paradox doesn't arise.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#204

Post by donalhunt » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:06 AM UTC

chance_state wrote: post #10

>In the past, one of the employees said, employees could review internal documents for virtually any project underway within the company. In recent years, however, more projects have become closed off and accessible only to smaller groups on a “need-to-know” basis, the employee said. >Earlier this year, following a series of leaks to the media, Google executives tightened their grip. They shut down thousands of contr…

It's interesting that contractors have gained access to so much information. When I was a contractor for a brief period in 2004, contractor access to information was very limited and full-time employees had access to a lot more information (which they weren't allowed to share).

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#205

Post by tomohawk » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

kjgkjhfkjf wrote: post #43

Although it's generally quite hard to get fired from Google, leakers have always been dealt with severely. Google once upon a time fired a member of the original Macintosh team for leaking information about the Christmas bonus. My guess is that the increased closing off of various documents is to do with the increased amount of confidential partner-related information as Google scales its cloud business. But, as is o…

Hopefully this is a sign that Google is changing course and focusing on providing value.

For a glimpse of the future if course is not changed, take a look at ABC/Disney, where the whole org has bought into partisanship so much that they are now tearing the whole company apart trying to find a the person responsible for leaking the video talking about their Epstein cover up.

> The source added ABC investigators have been rifling through staff emails, news logs and grilling staffers. The company has been isolating certain employees and putting them under pressure to turn on their colleagues in a bid to find the culprit, the source also claimed, adding the investigation reports back up to the very highest levels at HR at ABC’s parent company Disney.

https://pagesix.com/2019/11/12/abc-scrambles-to-figure-out-i...

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#206

Post by goatinaboat » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #73

flukus wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Yep all politics. As political issues they should be dealt with in the political arena of whichever branch of government is responsible. If you strongly believe in these rights and priveleges you'd be spending your time advocating for universal access…

Companies should only do the minimum required by law? We only win if everyone gets the benefit? I disagree, you are making perfect the enemy of good. The only solution is not "make the government mandate the solution".

Companies should only do the minimum required by law?

Google goes to extensive lengths to pay the minimum taxes required by law, exploiting every loophole they can find. Just saying.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#207

Post by pas » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:22 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #59

Pfhreak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. This works until you must, by necessity, either mix work and politics or suffer some indignity. Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Unfortunately, for many folks politics at work is a reality whether they want t…

> Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Yep all politics. As political issues they should be dealt with in the political arena of whichever branch of government is responsible. If you strongly believe in these rights and priveleges you'd be spending your time advocating for universal access…

What this has to do with state/country level politics (sure, besides everything, but)? You are simply saying to your employer (or potential employer) that I have this need (healthcare, mothers' room, 4 day workweek, whatever), and that were they willing to provide that you are going to work there.

Naturally if many people band together that constitutes a better bargaining strategy. (Sounds familiar?)

But unions and all the formal groupings are problematic, because they quickly regress to representing only the very common issues and/or smaller issues themselves become bargaining chips.

Solidarity organically grows these flocks of people banded together, and thus pragmatically these kinds of ad-hoc organizations have the same bargaining power as formal unions. (And the fact that Google fears this so much that they are willing to risk breaking the law because of it shows this.)

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#208

Post by say_it_as_it_is » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:24 AM UTC

What we are seeing are the consequences of "Employee Capture". Google captured the hearts and minds of its employees for workplace productivity. Its side effects are varied. The real world only sees highlights.

Googled created a bubble from which its employees can socialize without ever needing to do so with the outside world. Why talk politics with the outside world? Stay with us, where it is safe, people are intelligent, and share your values (we swear).

This is a root problem at the company. It is coming at a great cost.

James Damore shared his views with his social group. These other activists do the same. This is what people do among their own.

Being fired from Google amounts to not just losing a job but "friends" and the only people who the company encouraged socializing with.

Google has a major lawsuit on its hands, regardless of whatever arbitration agreement it makes new-hires sign. Google is causing harm by capturing employees hearts and minds.

Your colleagues are not an authentic social network who you can organise with and pursue activism. You aren't hired to do that. While you are naive for thinking you could, it's not entirely your fault. Google brainwashed you.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#209

Post by dmos62 » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #189

Iv wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unrealistic expectations Basically thinking "Don't do evil" and being a profitable competitive corporation are compatible.

There is nothing evil in keeping company secrets secret.

You're plain wrong. It always depends on the secret. Secret acts are just acts that some people don't know about. The debatable thing is if there are secrets that are not evil, which is difficult to answer.

Re: One Google Staffer Fired, Two Others Put on Leave Amid Tensions

#210

Post by janpot » Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 10:29 AM UTC

3xblah wrote: post #181

skissane wrote: post #28

> The documents concerned a mandatory tool that was recently installed on the Google Chrome browser on workers’ computers, the employees said. In October, some Google employees raised concerns that the Chrome extension was an internal surveillance tool designed to monitor their attempts to organize protests. It would automatically report staffers who create a calendar event with more than 10 rooms or 100 participants…

Perhaps by doing the monitoring client-side they can get reports both on successful attempts to create a calendar event as well as unsuccessful attempts to create a calendar event. For example, even if the browser for some reason cannot connect to the server and no event is actually created, perhaps the extension still reports on the "attempt" to create an event.

ah yes, So it can report back to its server when the network is down.

oh wait...