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Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

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Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from all the arguments brought up so far, there's that word "unreasonable" which the courts have historically interpreted with an "expectation of privacy" standard. You have a high expectation of privacy when you're in your house, somewhat less when you're in a car, and much less when you're entering an airport or crossing a border. In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in…

> In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in to harbor, including the effects of their passengers, to enforce importation laws Yes, but electronic devices can't digitally contain physical substances that might be subject to customs laws. It's not comparable. It's probably still today reasonable to search ships in the harbor and passengers for physical substances (like banned animal…

> but it's not obvious to me how searching electronic devices achieves any reasonable objective related to customs law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#332
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every citizen and immigrant who intends to become a citizen man (and women in the Guard) at least 17 years of age and under 45 is a member of the Militia of the United States[1]. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

But for the purpose of militia in this context and therefore that of the 2nd amendment, the power of Congress over the militia is deemed "unlimited" [0]. As such, regulating it's use of arms would be well within it's remit. [0] https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/article-1/58-the-mili...

... as long as such regulation does not infringe the right of the people to keep or bear arms for all the purposes envisioned by the constitutional framers.

Wikipedia has an excellent reference on this. See the "Experience in America prior to the U.S. Constitution" section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Unit...

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from all the arguments brought up so far, there's that word "unreasonable" which the courts have historically interpreted with an "expectation of privacy" standard. You have a high expectation of privacy when you're in your house, somewhat less when you're in a car, and much less when you're entering an airport or crossing a border. In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in…

Your examples of searching cargo aren't comparable though. The closest analog version to phone or computer searches would probably be searching an individual's private papers, personal journal, and list of contacts.

The incomparability is the point.

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been seeing this fallacy a lot lately in these times. If you're ever in this situation: the longer you're held without a lawyer, the higher the liability on your captor becomes. Period. This is where million dollar lawsuits by the ACLU and jail time for corruption begins. The US was founded on habeas corpus, and it doesn't matter what laws have been written since, or what national threats have been used as an ex…

> I've been seeing this fallacy a lot lately in these times. If you're ever in this situation: the longer you're held without a lawyer, the higher the liability on your captor becomes. Period. This is where million dollar lawsuits by the ACLU and jail time for corruption begins. This itself is actually the fallacy. Take a look at this: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/01/540903038... > Watson was corre…

This is astounding. It seems that there is actually an incentive to keep a person claiming to be a citizen imprisoned, since if they keep them imprisoned long enough, then any financial debt owed for the injustice will magically disappear thanks to statute of limitation.

"Flessner, Watson's lawyer, says the ruling "turns false imprisonment statute of limitation claims kind of on their head."

It means a person in custody for an extended period of time would have to file a false-imprisonment claim while detained, "before it's been determined that they've been falsely imprisoned," he said. "I mean, this is not only applicable to immigration cases ... there's lots of citizens that are falsely or wrongly imprisoned."

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#335
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from all the arguments brought up so far, there's that word "unreasonable" which the courts have historically interpreted with an "expectation of privacy" standard. You have a high expectation of privacy when you're in your house, somewhat less when you're in a car, and much less when you're entering an airport or crossing a border. In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in…

In the old days it was also routine for people to own eachother so I’m not sure how much that really means.

Classic whataboutism.

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#336
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from all the arguments brought up so far, there's that word "unreasonable" which the courts have historically interpreted with an "expectation of privacy" standard. You have a high expectation of privacy when you're in your house, somewhat less when you're in a car, and much less when you're entering an airport or crossing a border. In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in…

In the old days it was also routine for people to own eachother so I’m not sure how much that really means.

Yeah, and there was a constitutional amendment that changed that. There is no constitutional amendment that removes the word "unreasonable" from the 4th. CBP's argument is that these searches are reasonable, given the reduced expectation of privacy.

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about the legal justification, but I don't think that is true in practice. For example a tourist or someone on an expired visa (edit: or an unexpired but non-immigrant visa) doesn't have the same 2A rights as a US citizen or permanent resident.

The well regulated militia is subject to regulation.

That clause simply provides one important reason why "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed". It's not a limitation or restriction on that right. For more an extensive deep-dive on the meaning of this amendment, see District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008): https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/#tab-opi...

> ... the Second Amendment’s prefatory clause announces the purpose for which the right was codified: to prevent elimination of the militia. The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting. But the threat that the new Federal Government would destroy the citizens’ militia by taking away their arms was the reason that right—unlike some other English rights—was codified in a written Constitution. ...

> Besides ignoring the historical reality that the Second Amendment was not intended to lay down a “novel principl[e]” but rather codified a right “inherited from our English ancestors,” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U. S. 275, 281 (1897), petitioners’ interpretation does not even achieve the narrower purpose that prompted codification of the right. If, as they believe, the Second Amendment right is no more than the right to keep and use weapons as a member of an organized militia — if, that is, the organized militia is the sole institutional beneficiary of the Second Amendment’s guarantee — it does not assure the existence of a “citizens’ militia” as a safeguard against tyranny ...

> Every late-19th-century legal scholar that we have read interpreted the Second Amendment to secure an individual right unconnected with militia service. The most famous was the judge and professor Thomas Cooley, who wrote a massively popular 1868 Treatise on Constitutional Limitations. Concerning the Second Amendment it said: (...)

> “It might be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia, as has been elsewhere explained, consists of those persons who, under the law, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon. (...) The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is, that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms; and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose. But this enables government to have a well-regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than the mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in doing so the laws of public order.”

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the old days, it was routine for customs officers to search ships coming in to harbor, including the effects of their passengers, to enforce importation laws Yes, but electronic devices can't digitally contain physical substances that might be subject to customs laws. It's not comparable. It's probably still today reasonable to search ships in the harbor and passengers for physical substances (like banned animal…

> Yes, but electronic devices can't digitally contain physical substances that might be subject to customs laws Child porn is prohibited to be imported in any form, including digital. Customs isn’t about just physical objects.

[deleted]

Re: Court: Suspicionless Searches of Travelers’ Phones and Laptops Unconstitutional

#340
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is true in practice It is true in practice. One example: the children of illegal immigrants are legally entitled to public education, even though they aren't citizens.

This gets a couple things wrong: 1) People who aren’t citizens are still entitled to public education. Many green card holders go to US public schools, for instance 2) Anyone born on US soil is a US citizen regardless of their parents immigration status

Even foreign diplomats' kids?
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