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Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

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Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#31

Post by jandrese »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #7

There seems to be a general trend to avoid explanations in a lot of areas. For example, you often get no feedback after job interviews. Google just canceled my Drive subscription after 10 years without telling why but they offered me to sign up again. No idea why and support wouldn’t tell. How are people supposed to learn and improve without knowing told what they did wrong?

There are definitely forums that don't inform you of why your post was removed because they think that trolls will use this to basically probe the defenses to see exactly how much they can get away with. Making the moderation more obscure is thought to make them more reluctant to try things. I personally don't think this works, but it is the theory.

However, it is important to consider how bad actors will abuse your system if given the chance, because on the internet there will always be some trolls trying to burn your house down.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#32

Post by solveit »

betenoire wrote: post #24
jeltz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical. Because I see this issue in my country too where opening yourself to liability is not an issue. Maybe one could argue that it is due to cultural influences from the US which are copied without the original context, but ... eh, I feel it is pretty weak.

Liability and "speaking for the employer" aside... When I was first starting out, I found a job posting that I really wanted, so I applied and interviewed. I felt the interview went pretty well, but I got a call back that I wasn't what they were looking for. It was a small company, and the head of IT called me back to give me the bad news. I really wanted the job, so I asked why. He told me I was too junior of a deve…

I like how your story is both a lesson to really push to get what you want, and a lesson to not ever give people the opportunity to do so.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#33

Post by zaarn »

otterley wrote: post #22
stronglikedan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> benevolent dictatorship Regardless, it's still frustrating. Especially when they cannot tell you which "rule" you broke, so they resort to telling you they can use their discretion to ban you for any reason (which is usually some sort of agenda that becomes apparent after you've tried to have a civil discussion about why you were banned). It's what drove me away from that platform, and I'm sure I'm not the only one…

In my experience, what often happens is that telling them the reason often results in a repeat of the same behavior, but modified only minimally in an attempt to avoid violating the letter of the rules, but not necessarily the spirit of them. This leads to a constant back and forth and is exhausting to the community and moderators. Sometimes you just have to show boorish guests the door.

Well, you sorta posted this on a submission about a paper that indicates the opposite; telling people why something was removed leads to less content being removed and other issues, so I think that might be more of a perceptual bias rather than reality.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#35

Post by CharlesColeman »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #18
saagarjha wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reasons nobody tells you anything anymore is because doing so would open you up to liability. It’s probably a similar thing to why you’re not told the reasons for not getting a job, even though it’s somewhat unfortunate that it means useful context is lost…

I am not so sure it’s only about liability. Maybe with job interviews but in other areas it’s just cheaper to have automated systems that do the rejections and cancellations. Having support staff that can explain and even override decisions costs money This is undesirable so it’s better to lose a few customers. I think we’re at risk of building up the ultimate faceless and inhumane bureaucracy that works well in most…

I think that's closer to the real reason. As a culture it seems we're more and more frequently engaging in selfish "optimizations," that are really just creating or ignoring negative externalities.

Corporations are especially guilty of this, given how pathologically focused they are on shareholders. Often their cost-cutting verges on customer abuse: (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21513556, for an example I recently read about).

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#36

Post by roel_v »

300bps wrote: post #4

I can’t imagine what it’s like to moderate large sites like HN. I read it with Show Dead turned on and I’m amazed at how many people have been shadow banned with no clue they’ve been posting frequently for years with no idea 99% of people will never see what they wrote. In most cases it looks like dang does give them a reason when they’re banned but I don’t think many of them read it.

Dumb question - how can you tell what posts are from shadowbanned people?

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#37

Post by bcrosby95 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #20
saagarjha wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reasons nobody tells you anything anymore is because doing so would open you up to liability. It’s probably a similar thing to why you’re not told the reasons for not getting a job, even though it’s somewhat unfortunate that it means useful context is lost…

> I think the reasons nobody tells you anything anymore is because doing so would open you up to liability. Google has no legal obligation to provide you with Drive services, though. I believe they specifically disclaim any obligation in the EULA you agree to. Google in particular seems to have a broad and well-established policy of refusing to talk to individual users, whether for bans or simple support, outside of…

This is why I don't rely on Google anymore. I do have a Youtube account separate from the Gmail account I used to use, but I don't trust Google to not figure out its the same person and simply terminate both if the Youtube account does something they don't like.

It really is amazing how much power they have. In 19th century terms, if you're an ass to people at the tavern they can raid your home and burn all your personal documents and correspondences.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#38

Post by Hitton »

Giving reason for taken actions seem like it should be common sense, yet for some reason in many areas just doesn't happen, just muddying underlining issue.

A case in point, I recently opened a bank account and needed to verify my identity by taking photo of my id and my face. I did it at least five times and always got just generic answer that the verification was unsuccessful. I thought that problem was with bad quality of camera or difference between my appearance on id and the taken photo and only later I realised that the id has already expired. Why didn't it tell me first time so I could use passport, instead of letting me try it over and over again?

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#39

Post by bcrosby95 »

betenoire wrote: post #24
jeltz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical. Because I see this issue in my country too where opening yourself to liability is not an issue. Maybe one could argue that it is due to cultural influences from the US which are copied without the original context, but ... eh, I feel it is pretty weak.

Liability and "speaking for the employer" aside... When I was first starting out, I found a job posting that I really wanted, so I applied and interviewed. I felt the interview went pretty well, but I got a call back that I wasn't what they were looking for. It was a small company, and the head of IT called me back to give me the bad news. I really wanted the job, so I asked why. He told me I was too junior of a deve…

You make it sound as if he regretted hiring you. It's a pain in the ass to find people you want to hire and I'm always relieved when we successfully fill a seat. If someone can convince me at the last minute then more power to them.

Re: Telling users why their content was removed reduces future issues [pdf]

#40

Post by michaelmior »

Hitton wrote: post #38

Giving reason for taken actions seem like it should be common sense, yet for some reason in many areas just doesn't happen, just muddying underlining issue. A case in point, I recently opened a bank account and needed to verify my identity by taking photo of my id and my face. I did it at least five times and always got just generic answer that the verification was unsuccessful. I thought that problem was with bad qu…

The consequences here are also higher as the purpose is to avoid identity theft. At some point, I think there is some merit to obscurity. Although it certainly can result in a frustrating experience for legitimate customers.
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