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When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

newyorker.com

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Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#81

Post by rayiner »

hutzlibu wrote: post #78
CryptoPunk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman >>She and anarchist writer Alexander Berkman, her lover and lifelong friend, planned to assassinate industrialist and financier Henry Clay Frick as an act of propaganda of the deed. Frick survived the attempt on his life in 1892, and Berkman was sentenced to 22 years in prison

She also did not condemn the murder of president McKinley. So? Does that invalidate anything of what she wrote?

Without delving deeper into the facts, it raises the possibility that what she’s portraying as suppression of free speech and independent thinking is actually a legitimate reaction to someone engaged in criminal activity.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#82

Post by justinclift »

toasterlovin wrote: post #80
teh_klev wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and don’t have a huge second world country at their southern border. Some might dispute that claim.

To be honest, glib remarks about how the US is a second world country play well to a certain crowd, but they make the person making them look like a biased hack to anybody who engages in serious thinking.

Citation needed.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#83

Post by manigandham »

pjc50 wrote: post #77
manigandham wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overstaying a visa means they are an illegal resident and must leave or get new permission to stay. Obscurity is not an excuse to not follow the law. Likewise for asylum seekers, it's illegal to cross into a country without permission. You can flee, apply for asylum, and enter when that asylum is granted. There are also rules on when, where, and which countries you're allowed to apply for. These terms and concepts ar…

> You can flee, apply for asylum, and enter when that asylum is granted. Other way round. Asylum application must be made after arrival. You made a mistake in knowing what the rules are, so clearly it's only fair that you and your family are deported now.

Asylum seekers can apply at or within the border, refugees can apply outside the border. This is how people defect from foreign countries.

Applying does not give you permission to enter a country, that's only once you are granted protection. Depending on the circumstances, sometimes temporary entry is allowed. However if you're inside the border without permission then currently you're detained instead of immediately deported while the case is processed to help asylum seekers.

Those are the rules, and as a legal immigrant and naturalized US Citizen, I have absolutely no fear of deportation.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#84

Post by manigandham »

fzeroracer wrote: post #47
Mikeb85 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should call them illegal citizens. Then we can start working towards deporting such criminals as the article demonstrates. Well international law prevents you from making someone stateless so they get thrown in jail instead. But yes, non-citizens who commit crimes are generally deported. Also, the US classes crimes as either felonies or misdemeanours (possibly more categories?). In Canada we have indictable crim…

International law hasn't stopped the US before. So why bother? We can just deport these illegal citizens to the place that best matches their heritage. Problem solved. And in the US, jaywalking is a crime. A crime is a crime, which makes jaywalking a crime all the same. If they decided to jaywalk, then they deserve to be deported for their criminal actions. For reference: Crossing the boarder illegally is a misdemean…

Crossing a federal border to enter a sovereign nation is nothing like jaywalking. Crimes have levels of seriousness, and non-citizens have more serious consequences from committing crimes including deportation.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#86

Post by hutzlibu »

rayiner wrote: post #81
hutzlibu wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She also did not condemn the murder of president McKinley. So? Does that invalidate anything of what she wrote?

Without delving deeper into the facts, it raises the possibility that what she’s portraying as suppression of free speech and independent thinking is actually a legitimate reaction to someone engaged in criminal activity.

Individually there were indeed quite some anarchists and communistsengaged in criminal activity. But not at all, all of them. And this is the point: Radical people do want to change the current system completely. But there is a big difference between working on peacefull opposition and organizing in unions for example, than active terrorism. Those raids in the article were targeted on radicals, no matter the criminal activity of them - they targeted simply political opponents. Did raids, beatings and torture without warrants. Eventually deporting. Not really democratic.

And when you have the state doing this, than it is hypocrisy for this state to go to war for democracy.

And this criticism is valid, even if the person expressing it, did engage in criminal herself earlier in her life.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#87

Post by toasterlovin »

justinclift wrote: post #82
toasterlovin wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, glib remarks about how the US is a second world country play well to a certain crowd, but they make the person making them look like a biased hack to anybody who engages in serious thinking.

Citation needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Basically the only countries (excluding city states) that beat the US by a significant margin are the Scandinavian countries. Sweden is the largest of those countries at about 10.5 million people. For a point of reference, that's about the size of Georgia, the 8th largest state. If you compare US median household income to the larger European countries (Germany, France, UK, etc.), the comparison is devastating. The US has a household median income of around $43,500. Germany comes in at $33,000, with France and the UK trailing closely behind that. That's a 30% lead to the US. And, yes, those are purchasing power parity numbers.

So, let me re-iterate: when you assert that the US is anything other than a first world country you look like an idiot who is too lazy to spend the the 5 minutes on Wikipedia necessary to disabuse themselves of their prejudices and foolish notions.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#88

Post by teh_klev »

toasterlovin wrote: post #87
justinclift wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income Basically the only countries (excluding city states) that beat the US by a significant margin are the Scandinavian countries. Sweden is the largest of those countries at about 10.5 million people. For a point of reference, that's about the size of Georgia, the 8th largest state. If you compare US median household income to the larger European countries (Germany, France, UK,…

From your first comment:

"glib remarks" and "making them look like a biased hack to anybody who engages in serious thinking."

> you look like an idiot who is too lazy to spend the the 5 minutes on Wikipedia

Yes, thank you for insulting me a second time. And sorry, I don't regard Wikipedia as a reliable source, despite its selective citations.

Median income is a single measurement, it doesn't mean an iota if your country can't provide universal healthcare, free (or inexpensive) education, social security that is a genuine safety net for those who're in desperate circumstances, etc, etc. I consider these important elements of being a first world country.

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#89

Post by claudeganon »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #58
hutzlibu wrote: post #50

"We say that if America has entered the war to make the world safe for democracy, she must first make democracy safe in America. How else is the world to take America seriously, when democracy at home is daily being outraged, free speech suppressed, peaceable assemblies broken up by overbearing and brutal gangsters in uniform; when free press is curtailed and every independent opinion gagged? Verily, poor as we are i…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman >>She and anarchist writer Alexander Berkman, her lover and lifelong friend, planned to assassinate industrialist and financier Henry Clay Frick as an act of propaganda of the deed. Frick survived the attempt on his life in 1892, and Berkman was sentenced to 22 years in prison

I also remember when Frick was kicked out of the country for having unionists murdered and flooding Johnstown. Oh wait...

Re: When America Tried to Deport Its Radicals

#90

Post by toasterlovin »

teh_klev wrote: post #88
toasterlovin wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income Basically the only countries (excluding city states) that beat the US by a significant margin are the Scandinavian countries. Sweden is the largest of those countries at about 10.5 million people. For a point of reference, that's about the size of Georgia, the 8th largest state. If you compare US median household income to the larger European countries (Germany, France, UK,…

From your first comment: "glib remarks" and "making them look like a biased hack to anybody who engages in serious thinking." > you look like an idiot who is too lazy to spend the the 5 minutes on Wikipedia Yes, thank you for insulting me a second time. And sorry, I don't regard Wikipedia as a reliable source, despite its selective citations. Median income is a single measurement, it doesn't mean an iota if your coun…

You casually slandered my entire country and now you have a problem with my tone? What, exactly, do you expect? Especially when you’re just flat out wrong. I’m not even arguing that the US is the best, merely that it’s clearly a first world country, as evidenced by the incredible prosperity that most Americans participate in.

And regarding health care and a social safety net: you should familiarize yourself with Medicaid and our welfare programs. Many of the poorest Americans receive assistance of various kinds, on par with many first world nations.

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