Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions • Hacker News Board

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#51

Post by fogetti » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

silvestrov wrote: post #32

jasoncartwright wrote: post #5

Perhaps it's cultural (I'm from the UK), but I can't imagine writing something so painfully self-absorbed - and then expecting people to read it.

Ditto. I'm from Scandinavia and I've seen developers snicker at much less self-absorbedness from management. I also cannot understand the obsession with 30 minutes of 1:1 every week. I consider that an extreme version of micromanagement. Give us developers the big picture so we know what we need to work on and can see what's important in which way, and we will find out how it's done. If you don't trust developers to…

It seems you imply there are imperfect managers but there can only ever be perfect developers. I would be the happiest person on this planet if that would be the case. Excellent communication skills don't help if the listener is sub-par.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#52

Post by silvestrov » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

exactchange wrote: post #35

Unpopular opinion: In Silicon Valley, people managers can easily be a waste of time and money, and can cause unnecessary drama on your team. Think about the kind of so-called developer who would rather manage people than write code. We still need founders, executives, directors, advisors, etc. don't get me wrong. But has anyone ever come across an engineering manager worth their salt? Why did we start deploying peopl…

If you are good at bullshitting but not at tech stuff or at managing, then you want to expand the amount of bullshit in the company because this makes it much easier for you to survive.

When almost everyone bullshits, there is no danger for the bullshitter.

So quite a number of people have a big interest in keeping the talents out of the game, and to have as many layers of bureaucracy as possible as this makes it more difficult it is to point the finger at any one person.

The same happends in school classrooms. If you are quite a lot better than the other pupils in class, then you better keep your head down. Don't think you know better how to tackle the work ahead.

I think schools educate us into accepting only bad management.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#53

Post by mharroun » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

exactchange wrote: post #35

Unpopular opinion: In Silicon Valley, people managers can easily be a waste of time and money, and can cause unnecessary drama on your team. Think about the kind of so-called developer who would rather manage people than write code. We still need founders, executives, directors, advisors, etc. don't get me wrong. But has anyone ever come across an engineering manager worth their salt? Why did we start deploying peopl…

Without (competent) engineering leadership.

- Whos going to push back and sales and marketing for harassing you directly or taking direct blame for failures?

- Who will represent the engineering team in leadship meetings to make sure policies/decisions are made with their needs in mind?

- Who's going to fight for your raises and promotions?

- Who's going to make sure that there is budget for what engineering needs to do and keeps a proper record to keep finance happy?

Please thing about it... any company that grows to 30-50 people (even startups) need to have management and processes that eventually lead to (even unintentional) politics. The other departments will have leaders/managers defending/supporting them... its foolish to not understand or respect competent leaders.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#54

Post by kingbirdy » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #50

kingbirdy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in my 2+ decades of employment I've never had any sort of issues with management Then you're incredibly fortunate. I've had to deal with management issues at multiple companies in a shorter span of time.

Sure, but a README doesn't magically fix shitty management, if anything it just a justification for it. Not to mention people are just horrifying bad at seeing themselves as others see them. I think of the scene in A Christmas Story when the kid expects to get a glowing review of his paper but instead got a D grade. It actually reminded me of a family member of mine who got called into his boss's office. He was bragg…

Oh, certainly. I think a README could've been helpful from good managers, but it could just as easily make bad managers worse.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#55

Post by silvestrov » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

fogetti wrote: post #51

silvestrov wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. I'm from Scandinavia and I've seen developers snicker at much less self-absorbedness from management. I also cannot understand the obsession with 30 minutes of 1:1 every week. I consider that an extreme version of micromanagement. Give us developers the big picture so we know what we need to work on and can see what's important in which way, and we will find out how it's done. If you don't trust developers to…

It seems you imply there are imperfect managers but there can only ever be perfect developers. I would be the happiest person on this planet if that would be the case. Excellent communication skills don't help if the listener is sub-par.

No, I just don't see a 1:1 being better at communicating goals etc for the company compared to a group beeting.

Why is a meeting with a single developer so much better than a meeting with the full group? In group meetings you get more view points and more easily find out if somebody are talking past each other.

What is it that needs 30 minutes of personal time every week and that cannot be communicated at the meeting with the other developers in the group?

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#56

Post by techslave » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #31

jasoncartwright wrote: post #5

Perhaps it's cultural (I'm from the UK), but I can't imagine writing something so painfully self-absorbed - and then expecting people to read it.

> painfully self-absorbed Generally, when someone suffixes their name in a non-scholarly context with "PhD" that's usually the first clue that it's going to be pretentious and/or self absorbed.

For this guy, it’s at the end of the article. By the first paragraph you have all the clues you need. In fact, even by the title. Putting himself into that circle of “best managers” via logical fallacy: the best do this; I do this; I am the best.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#57

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #53

exactchange wrote: post #35

Unpopular opinion: In Silicon Valley, people managers can easily be a waste of time and money, and can cause unnecessary drama on your team. Think about the kind of so-called developer who would rather manage people than write code. We still need founders, executives, directors, advisors, etc. don't get me wrong. But has anyone ever come across an engineering manager worth their salt? Why did we start deploying peopl…

Without (competent) engineering leadership. - Whos going to push back and sales and marketing for harassing you directly or taking direct blame for failures? - Who will represent the engineering team in leadship meetings to make sure policies/decisions are made with their needs in mind? - Who's going to fight for your raises and promotions? - Who's going to make sure that there is budget for what engineering needs to…

[deleted]

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#58

Post by dchichkov » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

mharroun wrote: post #53

exactchange wrote: post #35

Unpopular opinion: In Silicon Valley, people managers can easily be a waste of time and money, and can cause unnecessary drama on your team. Think about the kind of so-called developer who would rather manage people than write code. We still need founders, executives, directors, advisors, etc. don't get me wrong. But has anyone ever come across an engineering manager worth their salt? Why did we start deploying peopl…

Without (competent) engineering leadership. - Whos going to push back and sales and marketing for harassing you directly or taking direct blame for failures? - Who will represent the engineering team in leadship meetings to make sure policies/decisions are made with their needs in mind? - Who's going to fight for your raises and promotions? - Who's going to make sure that there is budget for what engineering needs to…

The examples that you've given are political (represent, push back, take blame, fight), except for the example of keeping records (which is management).

Managements role, technical leadership role and politician role are different roles. The required skill sets and experience are different. The outcome of grabbing a wrong role is usually poor. Not confusing politician, technical leader and manager roles is probably a good idea to improve outcomes. As checking for required experience, to take the role.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#59

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #29

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #14

Manager READMEs start out with good intentions, but every example I've seen is flawed for multiple reasons: 1) It's manager-centric. Why would you give employees a guide to their manager when you could give them an "Employee README" that is focused on the new employee? When I join a company, I want to know what's expected of me so I can succeed. If the company delivers this in a form of a manager README then I'll sti…

I think you make some very good points, but I think there's still some value in the manager README even if it's flawed. It would be great to have both IMHO. I'm thought experimenting on also having a README written by direct reports that the boss doesn't get to see (so people could be more honest). I'm guessing it would quickly leak to the boss anyway, or someone trying to score points with the boss would just whitew…

[deleted]

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#60

Post by Havoc » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

IT people really love these kind of forced parallels. Can't really think of another sector that does this. Maybe it's all that "Uber/Airbnb but for X" thinking.

Unless your surname is .exe I don't think you need a readme file. You could do the human thing though and discuss expectations with your team though...