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For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

nytimes.com

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Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#41

Post by School-Cotton »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #36
braythwayt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct: French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem. I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the p…

> You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English. Just wow how utterly pissant.

Would you demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English in Spain or China?

If so, sure, you have a consistent position at least. If not, why is Quebec different?

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#42

Post by chongli »

School-Cotton wrote: post #35
chongli wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quebecers never chose to become part of Canada or any English-speaking society; they were conquered by military force. You could say the same thing for the indigenous people of Quebec. Why is there no protection for their languages? For example, the Malecite–Passamaquoddy language may have as few as 600 native speakers remaining [1]. This is a much more urgent situation than French, which has 76.8 million native spea…

Yes you could say the same thing about them, and I would be completely sympathetic to indigenous people in Quebec promoting the use of their own languages in their own territories, and discouraging the use of French. Unfortunately some of the groups have so few members (like the 600 you point out) that it would be difficult for them to be viable as a modern civilization using only their native language, but if they a…

I don’t think we even need to entertain discussion of the idea that any culture should be wiped out. That’s a non-starter. The distinction here is one of political power.

Francophone Quebecers have enough political power to enforce and expand their language and culture laws in order to “defend” their culture. But never lose sight of the fact that this comes at the expense of more than just anglophone residents. This affects all other cultures within Quebec. And that’s why you see it take the form of more than just language, it includes attacks on minority religious symbols and clothing as well.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#43

Post by dmytroi »

braythwayt wrote: post #18
jszymborski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.

Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct: French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem. I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the p…

As someone living in EU, there is a practical limit to this. Languages NEEDS should be satisfied: For example, a translator should be provided to someone not speaking common languages (for the area) trying to get medical care.

But language WANTS might not be economically viable. For example in Scandinavia, Sami people (estimated population Ironically the same true for French. There are 20+ very different dialects, is Quebec ready to work in all of them on government level? Or are we talking about le français standard?

So there is some practical limits to this, and so far EU is handling it's ok-ish. EU-wide systems are available in all official languages of all members, and minority languages are embraced when practical.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#44

Post by samat »

floki999 wrote: post #26

Quebec language rules and the minions that enforce them can be quite pathetic. Just a couple of months ago, the debate be was about the right of shop-keepers being able to greet their customers in both English and French, or only in French. Totally ridiculous. I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their heritage,…

Nearly half of a population of Riga has Russian as their native language. And yet it’s forbidden to greet customers in Russian for any shopkeeper in Riga.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#45

Post by emilfihlman »

gpm wrote: post #29
seszett wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the referendum result though? 49.4% for statu quo vs. 50.6% for independence? That's not really what I'd call a plebiscite for being part of Canada.

Something like that... and since the referendums happened when Quebec was most inclined to separate (in recent memory) that's really a good sign that > 50% of Quebec would prefer not to.

Are you really thinking that half the province against each other is a good sign?

Please.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#46

Post by School-Cotton »

dmytroi wrote: post #43
braythwayt wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct: French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem. I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the p…

As someone living in EU, there is a practical limit to this. Languages NEEDS should be satisfied: For example, a translator should be provided to someone not speaking common languages (for the area) trying to get medical care. But language WANTS might not be economically viable. For example in Scandinavia, Sami people (estimated population Ironically the same true for French. There are 20+ very different dialects, is…

Where are you coming up with 20 different dialects of French? Are you talking about the various French-based creole languages, which are totally separate languages (e.g., someone from France has essentially no hope of understanding a native Hatian Creole speaker). If that's what you mean it's a bit silly to call them "dialects" instead of "separate languages" because Haitian Creole and French are as different as English and French.

Or are you talking about the various regional languages/dialects/"patois" in France? If so, sure, many could be called "dialects of French" but they aren't spoken at all outside of France so it isn't really relevant to Quebec.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#47

Post by 1996 »

floki999 wrote: post #26

Quebec language rules and the minions that enforce them can be quite pathetic. Just a couple of months ago, the debate be was about the right of shop-keepers being able to greet their customers in both English and French, or only in French. Totally ridiculous. I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their heritage,…

Maybe you won't have a good time somewhere if you find the local language hilarious to listen to, unrecognizable or no-good.

Just my 2 cents, and wishing you the best wherever you are now

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#48

Post by shkkmo »

seszett wrote: post #27
jszymborski wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.

Saying anglophones built Quebec alongside the francophones sounds a bit like French people saying they built Algeria or Vietnam as a justification for not granting it independence. The reality is that the anglophones built Quebec because they were colonizing it, and without them the francophones would have "built Quebec" just as well.

The French started earnestly colonizing Quebec less than 100 years before the British conquest so that analogy does not seem apt at all...

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#49

Post by klyrs »

jefft255 wrote: post #2

I find this extremely embarrassing. I'm all for the protection of French in Quebec; but stupid decisions like this makes us look bad internationally and make no sense at all. I went to Laval University too, and guess what: my whole thesis, not just one chapter, was in English. Yet, I didn't speak English until I was 18. Am I not French enough for Quebec? I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble. Eng…

The funny thing for me in all this is that I'm an immigrant from the US, a native English speaker whose education was 100% English (including my PhD earned at a Canadian university). And yet, I was required to take English language tests in order to get permanent residence.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#50

Post by dmytroi »

School-Cotton wrote: post #46
dmytroi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in EU, there is a practical limit to this. Languages NEEDS should be satisfied: For example, a translator should be provided to someone not speaking common languages (for the area) trying to get medical care. But language WANTS might not be economically viable. For example in Scandinavia, Sami people (estimated population Ironically the same true for French. There are 20+ very different dialects, is…

Where are you coming up with 20 different dialects of French? Are you talking about the various French-based creole languages, which are totally separate languages (e.g., someone from France has essentially no hope of understanding a native Hatian Creole speaker). If that's what you mean it's a bit silly to call them "dialects" instead of "separate languages" because Haitian Creole and French are as different as Engl…

I'm referring to a fact that before economical needs created unified time / measurement system / language, each region had their own language-dialect. For example Gallo-Romance languages and so on [0].

- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France

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