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For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

nytimes.com

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Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#21

Post by neohaven »

School-Cotton wrote: post #16
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what h…

And proceeded to get told by the english landowners to "Speak White" when we'd speak our native french tongue.

We're just about as white as they come. "Speak White" means "Speak the english of your captors."

There is an actual poem from about the time of the Quiet Revolution named "Speak White" which would explain this really well, here's (ironically) an English translation of it :

https://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=738881

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#22

Post by throwpupper »

School-Cotton wrote: post #16
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what h…

In Quebec City they are loudly proud of how many Anglos they have driven away. They pretty much purged the city of anything non-French in the two last decades and are displaying it as a success story.

For me, displacing large communities based on their mother tongue is nothing to be proud of. Be it either way.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#23

Post by seszett »

gpm wrote: post #19
School-Cotton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what h…

Most places were conquered by military force, multiple times for that matter, that's not what makes Quebec unique or a terribly interesting piece of history. In fact, as places that explicitly chose to be part of a country, Quebec ranks pretty highly, since they've had multiple referendum's about leaving Canada.

What was the referendum result though? 49.4% for statu quo vs. 50.6% for independence? That's not really what I'd call a plebiscite for being part of Canada.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#24

Post by jkaplowitz »

jefft255 wrote: post #2

I find this extremely embarrassing. I'm all for the protection of French in Quebec; but stupid decisions like this makes us look bad internationally and make no sense at all. I went to Laval University too, and guess what: my whole thesis, not just one chapter, was in English. Yet, I didn't speak English until I was 18. Am I not French enough for Quebec? I hope the employee who made this call will get in trouble. Eng…

I don't support the original decision either, but the blame does not belong on the immigration officer for following an unreasonably strictly worded rule requiring studies to be "entirely" in French.

Yes, most officers don't read this particular rule literally, but immigration rules in general do and should apply literally instead of assuming that officers will always violate what the rule says in favor of contradictory judgment calls.

The fix should include replacing "entirely" with whatever they actually mean in the rules for the program. Most similar eligibility criteria in other contexts use phrases like "main language of instruction", some variation of which would work fine.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#26

Post by floki999 »

Quebec language rules and the minions that enforce them can be quite pathetic. Just a couple of months ago, the debate be was about the right of shop-keepers being able to greet their customers in both English and French, or only in French. Totally ridiculous.

I am also a native French speaker from Europe, and left Montreal because of the backward mentality. I totally respect Quebec’s need to protect their heritage, but you can’t force it down people’s throats. It is counter-productive. It wouldn’t be so funny, if Quebec French wasn’t so hilarious to listen to... they took perfectly good French and turned it into something that is often unrecognizable.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#27

Post by seszett »

jszymborski wrote: post #14
deanCommie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto

Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.

Saying anglophones built Quebec alongside the francophones sounds a bit like French people saying they built Algeria or Vietnam as a justification for not granting it independence.

The reality is that the anglophones built Quebec because they were colonizing it, and without them the francophones would have "built Quebec" just as well.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#28

Post by floki999 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #4
dbieber wrote: post #3

The decision has already been overturned: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/11/09/quebec-overturns-deci...

Mistakes like this happen all the time. What's truly telling is how fast it was reversed. One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we know for sure. Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring pattern.

It sure is a recurring pattern! Has been for decades.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#29

Post by gpm »

seszett wrote: post #23
gpm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most places were conquered by military force, multiple times for that matter, that's not what makes Quebec unique or a terribly interesting piece of history. In fact, as places that explicitly chose to be part of a country, Quebec ranks pretty highly, since they've had multiple referendum's about leaving Canada.

What was the referendum result though? 49.4% for statu quo vs. 50.6% for independence? That's not really what I'd call a plebiscite for being part of Canada.

Something like that... and since the referendums happened when Quebec was most inclined to separate (in recent memory) that's really a good sign that > 50% of Quebec would prefer not to.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#30

Post by benjohnson »

frabbit wrote: post #11
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

The attitude you display in this post suggests that it's a good thing for everyone that you moved. Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones and while it is difficult to adapt to using a new language it is not impossible and is actually fun in many ways. French survives in a sea of anglophone hegemony only because of such language laws.

>>Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones

I can vouch for that - if you make any attempt at all to speak the most basic French they love you for making the attempt.

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