How to Make Trillions of Dollars • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#51

Post by lisper » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:39 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #35

mmaunder wrote: post #11

Modern industrial civilization has developed within a certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern industrial civilization has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on the grounds that private vices yield public benefits, in the classic formulation. Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy i…

>"Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. Bullshit. A society based on the principles of the free market will create unprecedented human health and prosperity[1]. Anti-capitalists are anti-human. I wonder if the billion or so people that climbed out of poverty over the last decade thanks to global capitalism would change Chomsky's mind a…

> "Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time.

> Bullshit. A society based on the principles of the free market will create unprecedented human health and prosperity[1].

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#52

Post by The_Igor » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:40 PM UTC

exit wrote: post #16

reminds me of a story i just read by charles stross: http://www.bestsf.net/presents/RogueFarm.html about a future in which bioengineering allows individuals to become self sufficient (adding photosynthesis to their genome, for example). this causes the economy to collapse as many consumers no longer depend on society.

That was a good read. Thanks!

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#53

Post by jacoblyles » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:42 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #51

jacoblyles wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. Bullshit. A society based on the principles of the free market will create unprecedented human health and prosperity[1]. Anti-capitalists are anti-human. I wonder if the billion or so people that climbed out of poverty over the last decade thanks to global capitalism would change Chomsky's mind a…

> "Now, it has long been understood, very well, that a society that is based on this principle will destroy itself in time. > Bullshit. A society based on the principles of the free market will create unprecedented human health and prosperity[1]. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Sure. And nobody has proven that Jesus or Vishnu won't come back and destroy the world for its sins, either. Positing a future apocalypse that will envelope the world unless everyone adopts your pet religion has a long pedigree.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#54

Post by Evgeny » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:43 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #32

Hey guys, it has been too long since our last self-righteous anti-consumerist circle-jerk. This one is good! You can smell the smarminess right through the screen. We live in a time where the individual has more freedom to do what he wants with his life than ever before. When people live longer, survive perviously unsurvivable diseases, and can get by with the least work. When the glorious knowledge produced by human…

Mostly they just seem to get a kick out of criticizing how other people have chosen to live their lives.

Doesn't it make you sad that a huge number of people are unhealthy, unhappy, die prematurely from perfectly preventable reasons or just plainly do not have any slightest idea about what to do with their lives?

That's especially sad because it happens at the times when there are the most possible opportunities available to almost anyone.

Of course, I understand the common response - "but shouldn't they just live the lives they choose and who are you to tell them what to do with their lives".

This is reasonable and true, but I'm still sad for some reason.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#55

Post by martinkallstrom » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:43 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #27

martinkallstrom wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His math is not off, I get about the same using http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calcu... When he said 5% profit he meant 5% interest. Result depends on the figures you put in, but if you can get people to spend hundreds of dollars on your business every year of their life, you are probably in possession of a mechanism providing interest well over 12% or 15% annually. Which makes the value per c…

Ah, assuming a profit of $500 does make the maths make sense. But $500 profit a year from a single customer is way above the average for the majority of businesses.

So it follows that the majority of businesses does not make trillions of dollars either. :)

Still, there are several businesses that are making on average over $100-500/year profits on me. More or less my bank, car maker, gas station, energy company, furniture store, favorite soda brand, supermarket, fast food chain... what else? Scary thought.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#56

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:45 PM UTC

genieyclo wrote: post #41

jacquesm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, taking all that in to account and conceding that it is (1) true, and (2) a real problem how will we do better?

Some would argue there is no point in doing better. Some would argue the "we" is populated by stupidity that knows almost no bounds, and the only solution is to join the ranks of the Man on the quest to the mythical (in a probably hyperinflationary environment) trillion dollars. Cash in while the shit house goes down.

> Cash in while the shit house goes down.

Now that is depressing.

Surely there must be a way out. If there is one thing that I've noticed as a pattern over the years then it is that mankind will only get off their collective asses when it is proverbially speaking 1 minute to twelve (or even 1 past).

That gives me some hope that our considerable intelligence will be brought to bear in time of need and that we will actually deal with these problems, but first we need to be forcibly kicked out of our comfort zone.

Historically the house going down was the prelude to building a bigger and better house. The problem is that it sometimes took as much as several centuries to recover from the house going down.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#57

Post by moultano » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:45 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #32

Hey guys, it has been too long since our last self-righteous anti-consumerist circle-jerk. This one is good! You can smell the smarminess right through the screen. We live in a time where the individual has more freedom to do what he wants with his life than ever before. When people live longer, survive perviously unsurvivable diseases, and can get by with the least work. When the glorious knowledge produced by human…

>I guess it makes them feel better about themselves to imagine the great majority of the population are rubes and they are some wise sage.

On the contrary, I identify with the article because I know how stupid I am.

I know how manipulatable I am. I know how easy it is to hijack by overclocked-monkey-brain instincts. I know how subject I am to addictive behavior. I know how far I am from my ideal self. I know how much vigilance it takes to get closer to that ideal self.

I know that I am barely conscious for most of my life. The decisions I make throughout the day are mostly automatic, governed by forces trained on habit rather than intention. To live deliberately is a nearly impossible struggle with the meager tools at our disposal, and I'd be the last person to fault anyone for not doing it, or even for not desiring to.

It is not contradictory to believe that capitalism is the most effective engine for driving human ambition towards useful goals, and at the same time, decry the perverse incentives it creates to manipulate people against their interests and to destroy the environment.

I believe that capitalism is the best way to optimize a civilization towards an objective function. I don't believe that that objective function is correct, particularly when the the people optimizing for it have the ability to change it (through brand advertising, government influence, etc.) We ignore the tragedy of the commons at our peril.

In addition, a person freely making a bad decision of their own volition is not moral insulation for offering them that bad decision in the first place.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#58

Post by Evgeny » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:55 PM UTC

phrotoma wrote: post #4

I can't decide if this article is pure paranoia, depressing as hell, or inspiring.

It was all of the above for me, quite a rare combination. I think I'm going to read the whole blog and I have no idea how I did not come across it before.

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#59

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:55 PM UTC

Evgeny wrote: post #54

jacoblyles wrote: post #32

Hey guys, it has been too long since our last self-righteous anti-consumerist circle-jerk. This one is good! You can smell the smarminess right through the screen. We live in a time where the individual has more freedom to do what he wants with his life than ever before. When people live longer, survive perviously unsurvivable diseases, and can get by with the least work. When the glorious knowledge produced by human…

Mostly they just seem to get a kick out of criticizing how other people have chosen to live their lives. Doesn't it make you sad that a huge number of people are unhealthy, unhappy, die prematurely from perfectly preventable reasons or just plainly do not have any slightest idea about what to do with their lives? That's especially sad because it happens at the times when there are the most possible opportunities avai…

[deleted]

Re: How to Make Trillions of Dollars

#60

Post by zoomzoom » Thu, Jan 27, 2011, 10:56 PM UTC

jacoblyles wrote: post #32

Hey guys, it has been too long since our last self-righteous anti-consumerist circle-jerk. This one is good! You can smell the smarminess right through the screen. We live in a time where the individual has more freedom to do what he wants with his life than ever before. When people live longer, survive perviously unsurvivable diseases, and can get by with the least work. When the glorious knowledge produced by human…

I don't think that it is the benefits of unbridled consumption that have people down. It is true that we live in a time that has amazing medicine, food, and communication.

The problem is that the oil, plastic, space for garbage, fertilizer for food, etc - the resources that our "amazing world" depends on - may not be unlimited. The depression sets in when you realize that with adequate foresight we could have enough amazing to get the benefits but without running our society into the ground; if only people had such foresight.

For most of the "conspiracy-nut losers" I think that your conjecture about the rubes and the sages makes sense. But for the thoughtful minority who believe in technology and consumption but also fear the excess of greedy monopolists, there is a real pearl of concern, it seems.