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For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

nytimes.com

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Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#11

Post by frabbit »

cmer wrote: post #7
Waterluvian wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mistakes like this happen all the time. What's truly telling is how fast it was reversed. One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we know for sure. Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring pattern.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

The attitude you display in this post suggests that it's a good thing for everyone that you moved. Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones and while it is difficult to adapt to using a new language it is not impossible and is actually fun in many ways.

French survives in a sea of anglophone hegemony only because of such language laws.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#12

Post by jszymborski »

cmer wrote: post #7
Waterluvian wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mistakes like this happen all the time. What's truly telling is how fast it was reversed. One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we know for sure. Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring pattern.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I'm sorry to hear you've been driven out by the politics (god knows after 26 years I'm quite exhausted as well). I don't know your story, and you might have been on a sharper end of the stick policy-wise than myself, but I do feel the need to make provincial politics the last thing to consider when contemplating a move if I am able to. I fear that having anglophones flee the province because of these policies are just add fuel to the injustice. I rather be a vocal and present reminder to my neighbors and coworkers that Quebec is made-up of more than the ruling class.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#13

Post by frabbit »

deanCommie wrote: post #9
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto

Exactly. Ce n'est pas facile à apprendre mais c'est possible.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#14

Post by jszymborski »

deanCommie wrote: post #9
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto

Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones.

We've as much right to this province as francophones.

Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#16

Post by School-Cotton »

cmer wrote: post #7
Waterluvian wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mistakes like this happen all the time. What's truly telling is how fast it was reversed. One could argue its only because it got national coverage but I don't think we know for sure. Ultimately I don't think it matters unless we start seeing a recurring pattern.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group.

Look what happened to French in Louisiana, or Irish in Ireland, or Native American languages across the continent. Quebecers don't want that to happen to them, and I can't blame them.

By the way, always remember that Quebecers never chose to become part of Canada or any English-speaking society; they were conquered by military force.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#17

Post by School-Cotton »

friendlybus wrote: post #6
jefft255 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed let's hope it was basically a mistake; right now I have a few French (from France) friends doing phds at the same university, and I'm pretty sure that they will have English chapters in their thesis (research paper insertion).

Do they comment on Québécois French? I hear it is closer to 19th century French than modern France.

That's a bit of a myth. The dialects have been evolving separately since that time; you can't say either is closer to the branch point than the other.

The reason French people believe this is because yes, there is some old vocabulary like souliers retained in Quebec, but on the other hand there are also some features that they've lost over time that are retained in France, like using si instead of oui to contradict a negative.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#18

Post by braythwayt »

jszymborski wrote: post #14
deanCommie wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto

Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.

Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct:

French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem.

I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the province's official languages to be English and French, well, democracy is there to make that possible, even if it's unlikely at the moment.

You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English.

---

As for me, I lve in Ontario. And FWIW, I believe very deeply that our society should beend over backwards to do business with people in a language they understand. So if someone is in trouble with the law, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to providing them with a translator. I think government web sites should have all sorts of translations available. I believe in the melting pot.

But...

All I can do is advocate for it and vote for it. If a different province votes for something else... I respect that.

I feel that official languages is in a very different bucket than laws about what people can wear in public.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#19

Post by gpm »

School-Cotton wrote: post #16
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what h…

Most places were conquered by military force, multiple times for that matter, that's not what makes Quebec unique or a terribly interesting piece of history.

In fact, as places that explicitly chose to be part of a country, Quebec ranks pretty highly, since they've had multiple referendum's about leaving Canada.

Re: For Quebec, a French Woman May Not Be French Enough

#20

Post by mdtusz »

School-Cotton wrote: post #16
cmer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never…

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what h…

> They were conquered by military force.

This will no doubt come across poorly, but it's important to keep in mind when it happened. Quebec was allowed to keep their language, despite being conquered.

The current government is downright hostile towards Anglophones and immigrants.

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