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Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

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Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#101

Post by ksec »

rndgermandude wrote: post #13

Other than him being very outraged and claiming gender-based discrimination again and again, is there actually anything to suggest the algorithm is biased on the gender axis, as opposed to any other axis? Just to be clear: I am not dismissing the possibility that the algorithm (meaning the training data, really) is gender biased, it just isn't clear from what I have seen in the tweet storm that this is necessarily th…

In the thread, it was pointed out that her wife actually has a better credit score than he did, and judging from the photo, it looks like ( I may be wrong ) that she only gets like $50 of credit limit.

I had the same thought as you did when I first read it, for those of us not in US, it seems strange and we assume those Credit Score and Algorithm works as intended, like in your example of past loans and payment. And from experience they tend to be consistent and can be easily explained.

In this case however it seems something is very wrong.

I am still thinking and not sure if it is Apple to be blamed. It is easy to just point a finger to Apple, but in reality our financial and insurance system works pretty much the same way, changing these algorithm will require lots of work. Luckily GS is new to all these consumer business and changes are much easier as compared to other banks.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#102

Post by notadoc »

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #57

I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender. It could be "it's a new product, we randomly assign credit limits to see how it affects behavior". It could be "it's a community property state and we're overexposed to this household if we give the second card the same limit as the first". It could, realistically, be almost anything ex…

> I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender.

Of course not, but why spoil the outrage mobs victimhood narrative du jour?

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#103

Post by heartbreak »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #97
w4 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I haven't read the whole thread, but I am seeing him bitch about her credit score being higher -- from a single agency. There are other agencies which may have different info. If you read the thread, he was specifically told the Apple Card uses Transunion, which is why they checked with Transunion, and found her score was higher on that report: https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192945415538106369?s=21

He was also repeatedly told "It's the algorithm, man! And I have no clue what's in it!" I worked for a Fortune 500 company at one time. Lots of entry level employees were not exactly reliable sources of info about how decisions got made there. You may or may not be talking with an entry level employee in their call center, but you probably aren't talking to a departmental head or member of the C suite.

Let’s assume that the tweet author is reasonably well-versed in business operations, since he is himself a very successful businessman.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#104

Post by notadoc »

minimaxir wrote: post #2

The original Twitter thread is still being updated, and it's a doozy. This is not an isolated incident. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1193240508845510656 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1193242909111398401

Social media anecdotes! Oh my!

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#105

Post by [deleted] »

slg wrote: post #6

>“Any algorithm, that intentionally or not results in discriminatory treatment of women or any other protected class of people violates New York [and federal] law.” I worry about this a lot with the growing importance of algorithms and machine learning. You can't just not actively program the thing to discriminate and assume that is enough. You have to specifically program it to not discriminate.

[deleted]

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#106

Post by shuckles »

Credit lines are given based on stated income, not on credit score. A common problem in this industry is that non-working partners state their personal income instead of household income. Even if an applicant is approved due to strength of credit, the bank won’t underwrite a large line for low stated income.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#107

Post by tenpies »

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #57

I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender. It could be "it's a new product, we randomly assign credit limits to see how it affects behavior". It could be "it's a community property state and we're overexposed to this household if we give the second card the same limit as the first". It could, realistically, be almost anything ex…

I mean you know the system is sexist when one gender out-lives the other by a considerable number of years yet the retirement age for both is the same.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#108

Post by heartbreak »

rhexs wrote: post #68
jacquesm wrote: post #16

Good for him. Of course if he had been a nobody this would never have gotten traction but typically DHH is found on the right side of issues like these and I commend him for speaking out. This is likely one of very many such instances and let's hope that insurance companies, banks and other financial service providers take note.

Speaking out about what? The guy appears to be claiming that a company is discriminating against women with no evidence aside from a single anecdote. Seems like he's some sort of rich 1%er founder, probably not approved under any sort of standard model the typical applicant will fit into, and thus has a crazy high limit. Is there anything more to this than typical twitter mock indignation and outrage? Now, if his wif…

As explained in the very first tweet in the thread, DHH’s wife is exactly as wealthy as DHH. That’s part of the frustration expressed.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#109

Post by shuckles »

Terretta wrote: post #76
tootie wrote: post #25

One data point really isn't enough to draw a conclusion and I actually doubt it's true. GS is extremely scrupulous when it comes to avoiding liability and they probably put a ton of diligence into their risk model. It's possible there's some emergent gender bias but we'd need a better show of proof.

> One data point really isn't enough to draw a conclusion My wife's credit history is longer and historically her score higher because I used no revolving credit until recently, and not using credit cards counts against you. Also married filing jointly... For the Apple Card, I was given her limit several times over. I did notice that the expected limit is shown before the hard pull on credit. This means they've got a…

Did you and your wife put different incomes in the application? Do you have identical debt loads on the credit report?

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#110

Post by DoreenMichele »

heartbreak wrote: post #103
DoreenMichele wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was also repeatedly told "It's the algorithm, man! And I have no clue what's in it!" I worked for a Fortune 500 company at one time. Lots of entry level employees were not exactly reliable sources of info about how decisions got made there. You may or may not be talking with an entry level employee in their call center, but you probably aren't talking to a departmental head or member of the C suite.

Let’s assume that the tweet author is reasonably well-versed in business operations, since he is himself a very successful businessman.

Sure.

Let's assume I am very well versed in other pertinent domains of knowledge, like social psychology and the tendency for people to get mad as hell about social justice issues and leap to ugly conclusions that fit their SJW narrative about evil in the world that can be conveniently lumped under a one word heading, like sexism.

Let's further assume that this is actually actively counterproductive, so it's reasonable to point out that correlation is not causation and it's unhelpful to insist on a particular conclusion you cannot prove.

I already noted he's right to be outraged at the situation and critical of the black box nature of the decision. I'm just not comfortable with him ranting that it's clearly and obviously due to sexism.

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