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The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

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Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would literally be a day. They pass the legislation and they would stop.

The lack of political will and the form of legislation are the questions. If the rule is that telcos must eat the cost of a scam, they will drag it out in court and the consumer must still prove it. If the rule is that each robocall that makes it through must be paid by the telcos (take the consumer out of this), then telcos will battle each other to try and insist that the other party is responsible. At some point t…

> If the rule is that telcos must eat the cost of a scam, they will drag it out in court and the consumer must still prove it.

> If the rule is that each robocall that makes it through must be paid by the telcos (take the consumer out of this), then telcos will battle each other to try and insist that the other party is responsible.

I don't necessarily see these as guaranteed outcomes. You don't see this kind of behavior for banks, which are generally the ones liable for credit card fraud.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#212

I see people here saying that spoofed numbers is the problem. Maybe it's a big part of it, but at the end of the day, the phone companies are complicit with the criminals because there's no good reason that these robocalls can't be treated like a DoS attack. These crooks make millions , of calls every year. My first employer was apparently making robocalls, though none of us were aware of it(there was a call center w…

This is exactly correct. The phone companies could charge $9/minute to any call originator who wasn't showing the actual number on the call, and this activity would stop. Conversely, the FCC could make any telco that carries a robo call 50% liable for any fines associated with that robo call. That too would stop this crap in its tracks.

"The phone companies could charge $9/minute to any call originator who wasn't showing the actual number on the call"

How could this work in the current environment, given that:

- termination rates (the rates paid to the recipient's phone company for delivering the call) are regulated, and can't be set arbitrarily high

- phone companies have no way to check whether the outbound caller ID I present is also a valid inbound number for me

- even if they did, it's cheap to get a number in every area code (maybe $1/month/number) and cheap (1 cent per minute) to have calls to that number to delivered to me via VoIP (so I can rightly claim that the outbound caller ID matches my 'actual number')

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#213

I have a question, why are robocalls such a problem in the U.S.A.? As far as I know, they aren’t in Germany (or if they are, not on that level, I never got one).

There are a lot of people living outside the USA who can speak English. Both legitimate and fraudulent English-language call centers are easier to set up internationally than German-language call centers. The robo part of the call can obviously be automated from anywhere but there are actual humans pretending to be from "Apple Support" when a target responds. That raises another question: are other Anglosphere countr…

I'm in the US and have gotten a non-trivial percentage of spam calls in Spanish and Mandarin. I don't think it's just the language issue.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#214
post #141

While robocalls are annoying, what's the moral justification for making this illegal? If a person is allowed to call you, why can't a computer? Also the line is getting blurred recently, so it seems like a problematic distinction at this point in time.

> If a person is allowed to call you, why can't a computer?

If you're on well-legislated do-not-call list, a person is not allow to call you unsolicited for non-personal purposes.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#215
post #2

Honestly I'm surprised they've managed to collect that much. Good job guys.

This is a market-based problem rather than a policy problem: The problem is the low cost of making calls. Make calls cost money and the problem will naturally go away.

I agree with your basic point: that this is a problem that's enabled by low-cost telecoms. We already saw that movie, in the 1990s, in Usenet and Email spam. And we know how it ends. Spoilers: everyone dies.

The problem with your proposed solution is that you're going to have an awfully hard time rebottling that genie. We've got low-cost comms. And within the triple entente of costs, infrastructure, and network effects, you're going to see those re-emerge, whether on the PSTN old-school phone network (inclusive of mobile and VOIP), or on some replacement.

Infrastructure, because you're talking about billions of subscribers. Even a limited network is tens to hundreds of millions. (Numbers for online community services are similar.)

Costs, because users will migrate to the low-cost solution, all else being equal. If regulation requires a cost floor on one network, you'll see migrations elsewhere, and legislation and regulation virtually always lag.

Network effects, because an effective and attractive network is either extraordinarily selective (The Harvard Face Book), or universal (Facebook). Much of the actual systemic value comes not from what the vendor or service provider, er, provides, but from what the users bring to the network. And a large network makes up for a lot of crud in other areas.

(Corollary: the replacement service is almost certain to emerge within some elite niche, and then spread out, as did writing, literacy, publishing, telephony, the Internet, mobile phones, smartphones, and social networking.)

(Corollary: alternatives which start out with the spammers and marketers already on-board and running rampant will likely fail to make the cut.)

Increasing costs across the board won't work.

Oh, and you've got a whole mass of vested interests propping up the current system. I've already linked Bernhard J. Stern's "Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations", but the logic expressed there largely applies, and the paper itself includes several comms-based examples.

Increasing costs for malfeasance, most especially at the service provider level, probably through some charge-back or penalty scheme, with (excellent suggestion from, er, you, by the way: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21494014) a bounty available to third parties, could well be part of that.

A basic outline which you'll also find widely repeated through history.

Markets caused this problem through externalities, informational asymmetries, vested power relationships, sunk costs, network effects, and perverse incentives. You're not going to solve the problem by marketing it harder.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#216
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember asking my high school English teacher if I could use the contraction "shouldn't've" for "should not have." She said no. I still disagree.

A perfectly valid construction. My science teacher once insisted rivers couldn't flow north because on a globe, north is up. So, yeah, education is a bit of a mixed bag.

> My science teacher once insisted rivers couldn't flow north because on a globe, north is up.

Did he just not consider, say, the Nile?

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#217
post #186

There needs to be postage imposed on connecting calls between systems, payable to the person called, and potentially refundable upon lack of complaint for being unsolicited. This could work for email spam, as well. Bonus if people get to set their own postage rates.

It's called a termination fee, and it already exists. Alas, it's payable to the receiving operator, not the receiving person - meaning that your telco actually makes money on every single spam call you get. Talk about perverse incentives! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termination_rates

What I'm describing would need to be large enough to be a deterrent, in regards to being truthful or not (or solicited vs unsolicited). That's why I like the idea of something pre-paid but refundable.

There might also be something of value in only refunding the fee to the CNAM entity, which would at least offer some incentive to not lie about being associated.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

T-Mobile does spam filtering; not sure about other carriers. The default configuration (or at least I think it is, because I don't remember changing it) is to tag the calls by setting the Caller-ID to the name "Scam Likely". You can then configure your phone to respond differently to calls from that ID (e.g. disable ringer). Alternately, if you trust their filtering enough, you can have those calls blocked so they do…

Unfortunately when I use our conference system’s “call my phone” feature it almost always shows the number as “scam likely”. So I guess the scammers are using the same block of numbers as the conference system.

Is your outbound system spoofing a number so they all appear to be from the same one? If so, that might be why.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly correct. The phone companies could charge $9/minute to any call originator who wasn't showing the actual number on the call, and this activity would stop. Conversely, the FCC could make any telco that carries a robo call 50% liable for any fines associated with that robo call. That too would stop this crap in its tracks.

"The phone companies could charge $9/minute to any call originator who wasn't showing the actual number on the call" How could this work in the current environment, given that: - termination rates (the rates paid to the recipient's phone company for delivering the call) are regulated, and can't be set arbitrarily high - phone companies have no way to check whether the outbound caller ID I present is also a valid inbo…

If you could enforce that the outbound caller ID matched a valid inbound number, that would solve a lot of problems. (1) if a number is used for spam a lot it’s gonna get blocked; rotating through a bunch of numbers per area code does get somewhat more expensive over time (and they could probably enforce a fee for connecting/transferring a number). (2) it solves the problem where regular people get accused of spamming because they were spoofed, (3) it solves the problem of fake law enforcement or government agencies “calling” you from legit LE phone numbers.

Sure, spammers could still get tons of numbers, but straight up spoofing would vanish, and that’s a big enough win.

Re: The FCC Has Fined Robocallers $208M, Collected $6,790

#220

Lots of these robocalls are fraudulent. They say nonsense like they're the FBI acting on behalf of the IRS, with a warrant for my arrest. If somebody ran a scam like that through the USPS, they'd become a guest of the US Bureau of Prisons for a few years. Internet DoSers get prison time too. But not these parasites. If the scammers are offshore, an arrest or two in the customs hall at an airport will get peoples' att…

The problem is also that a lot of them are not in the US. We can’t touch them usually.
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