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Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

theguardian.com

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Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#31

Post by goatinaboat »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #23
the_narrator wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen right-wing brought up multiple times, how does the same not apply to the far left?

Guardian are UK based. The far left in the UK barely exist, or at least are spread so thin they barely matter. There's dozens (hundreds?) of fringe groups still, and sub-groups within Labour. The right seem to have had their Internet act rather more together - whether the ERG wing of the Tories, UKIP, or the outright fascist Britain First. Or at least slightly less inclined to split into the People's Front of Judea,…

The far left in the UK barely exist, or at least are spread so thin they barely matter.

I don’t want to get into an ideological flamewar (hello dang!) but this factually isn’t true. Momentum have gotten so out of hand that even Tom Watson is telling people to vote for BoJo now.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#32

Post by knzhou »

satya71 wrote: post #6
knzhou wrote: post #3

This article, like many many others, dances between two contradictory narratives. On one hand, it's claimed that targeted advertising just doesn't work, and it's a bunch of pointless, flashy tech which advertisers are wasting their money on. I'm partly sympathetic to this view. But it is simultaneously claimed that targeted ads are so powerful that they are single-handedly responsible for every right-wing political v…

Both can be true simultaneously. Targeted ads work where they reinforce and expand on existing inclinations and beliefs. They don't work so well when you're trying to sell in general or raise awareness of your brand. So someone who was mildly inclined toward right-wind ideas can be made into a alt-right supporter with the right targeted messaging. But when I'm trying to convince someone to buy my expensive gizmo, tar…

And I can write a similarly plausible narrative in the opposite direction.

"Somebody who is starting to do yoga is definitely going to be affected by a yoga mat ad. But political opinions involve deeply held personal convictions, cultural values, and moral intuitions, and may even be determined in large part by fixed personality traits. How could an ad possibly change all that?"

That's why deciding on the conclusion you want and then writing a plausible narrative in support of it isn't good enough. A narrative can be made to support any conclusion. To decide which is true, you need actual evidence, which in the case of social media and politics is sorely lacking.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#33

Post by joe_the_user »

satya71 wrote: post #6
knzhou wrote: post #3

This article, like many many others, dances between two contradictory narratives. On one hand, it's claimed that targeted advertising just doesn't work, and it's a bunch of pointless, flashy tech which advertisers are wasting their money on. I'm partly sympathetic to this view. But it is simultaneously claimed that targeted ads are so powerful that they are single-handedly responsible for every right-wing political v…

Both can be true simultaneously. Targeted ads work where they reinforce and expand on existing inclinations and beliefs. They don't work so well when you're trying to sell in general or raise awareness of your brand. So someone who was mildly inclined toward right-wind ideas can be made into a alt-right supporter with the right targeted messaging. But when I'm trying to convince someone to buy my expensive gizmo, tar…

Basically, targeted ads are a waste of time in a large percentage of cases but can be quite destructive if you can figure how to target a particular group that might be subject to just the sort of obsession you want to sell.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#34

Post by rudyfink »

I keep thinking about the reasoning of Twitter's Jack Dorsey for banning political ads--that the technology was too dangerous for use in politics:

"While internet advertising is incredibly powerful and very effective for commercial advertisers, that power brings significant risks to politics, where it can be used to influence votes to affect the lives of millions.

Internet political ads present entirely new challenges to civic discourse: machine learning-based optimization of messaging and micro-targeting, unchecked misleading information, and deep fakes. All at increasing velocity, sophistication, and overwhelming scale."

https://twitter.com/jack/status/1189634360472829952

But if modern targeted advertising is powerful enough to be dangerous in politics, why is that technology not also dangerous in the hands of commercial advertisers? It seems like it would be equally dangerous in either hands. If anything, it seems like commercial actors would be less likely to be benevolent and more likely to have the resources to use the technology even more effectively.

Maybe that's wrong though (and maybe there are reasons why there is a distinction), but it is something I keep finding myself thinking about.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#35

Post by knzhou »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #30
knzhou wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're perfectly correct. The advantage of social media, if it exists at all, is symmetric between right and left. The 2008 Obama campaign was universally celebrated in the press for its deft use of social media [0, 1, 2, 3, 4], which included data mining in the style of Cambridge Analytica but at several times the scale, and using that data to hyper-target its message. Strangely, at the time this was universally cal…

Obama and the Democratic Party are, by no stretch of the imagination, far-left. I suspect whoever had used it first would have been celebrated at the time. Every new innovation usually reveals its problems only later. Targeted ads 15 years ago were touted as being able to ensure we'd have a healthy relationship with ads, and only get ads we desired. Didn't turn out like that, did it? If Cambridge Analytica had come a…

> Obama and the Democratic Party are, by no stretch of the imagination, far-left.

Indeed. My point is that social media works about equally well for both mainstream left (the Obama campaign) and mainstream right (the Trump campaign). It also works for both far-left and far-right. I know people who have been radicalized this way in both directions.

> I suspect whoever had used it first would have been celebrated at the time. [...] If Cambridge Analytica had come along 5 years earlier in the political cycle, the Republicans would have been lauded for finding a marvellous new technique to engage the electorate

I'm sorry, but this is such a naive take that I honestly don't know how to respond to it. Even as a child I was able to deduce, from the obvious editorial slant in the newspaper, that an inversion of tribal affiliations like this would never happen. I challenge you to find any article in the NYT or Guardian that paints any new election strategies by any right-wing politicians favorably.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#36

Post by NeedMoreTea »

goatinaboat wrote: post #31
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guardian are UK based. The far left in the UK barely exist, or at least are spread so thin they barely matter. There's dozens (hundreds?) of fringe groups still, and sub-groups within Labour. The right seem to have had their Internet act rather more together - whether the ERG wing of the Tories, UKIP, or the outright fascist Britain First. Or at least slightly less inclined to split into the People's Front of Judea,…

The far left in the UK barely exist, or at least are spread so thin they barely matter. I don’t want to get into an ideological flamewar (hello dang!) but this factually isn’t true. Momentum have gotten so out of hand that even Tom Watson is telling people to vote for BoJo now.

Compared to the fun times of Labour in the sixties and seventies. Or early eighties Trotskyite Militant Tendency, with all the "fun" councils and leaders like Derek Hatton - and Blunkett - once leader of strike supporting Sheffield council - a nuclear free city (lol), who now tries to position himself as a moderate. They used to be in the news pretty much every day (well it felt that way).

Momentum aren't even in the same league. They are far less influential than Militant were, or the ERG within the Tories. The majority of the MPs aren't supporters. Tom Watson more likely takes issue with Corbyn's impossible dance with Brexit, and the clique around Corbyn - at heart Corbyn wants to leave too, or the failed attempt to oust him.

Momentum appears to be a mostly failed attempt to recreate those Militant days, except they are a far less successful parasite.

https://www.publicfinance.co.uk/feature/2018/10/liverpool-19...

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#37

Post by goatinaboat »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #36
goatinaboat wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The far left in the UK barely exist, or at least are spread so thin they barely matter. I don’t want to get into an ideological flamewar (hello dang!) but this factually isn’t true. Momentum have gotten so out of hand that even Tom Watson is telling people to vote for BoJo now.

Compared to the fun times of Labour in the sixties and seventies. Or early eighties Trotskyite Militant Tendency, with all the "fun" councils and leaders like Derek Hatton - and Blunkett - once leader of strike supporting Sheffield council - a nuclear free city (lol), who now tries to position himself as a moderate. They used to be in the news pretty much every day (well it felt that way). Momentum aren't even in the…

Thanks to Milliband’s £3 memberships Momentum Entryists absolutely dominate any internal Labour decision making to an extent that Militant never did - most of them were booted out of Labour anyway, but can you ever imagine Labour ejecting Corbyn’s inner circle?

Anyway I am just making observations here, not trying to start an argument :-)

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#38

Post by NeedMoreTea »

knzhou wrote: post #35
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama and the Democratic Party are, by no stretch of the imagination, far-left. I suspect whoever had used it first would have been celebrated at the time. Every new innovation usually reveals its problems only later. Targeted ads 15 years ago were touted as being able to ensure we'd have a healthy relationship with ads, and only get ads we desired. Didn't turn out like that, did it? If Cambridge Analytica had come a…

> Obama and the Democratic Party are, by no stretch of the imagination, far-left. Indeed. My point is that social media works about equally well for both mainstream left (the Obama campaign) and mainstream right (the Trump campaign). It also works for both far-left and far-right. I know people who have been radicalized this way in both directions. > I suspect whoever had used it first would have been celebrated at th…

I'm not that naive. :p

Of course it wouldn't be the NYT or Guardian reporting were the cycle at the opposite peak. It would be the Telegraph or I guess the US equivalent would be WaPo?

Partisan newspapers aren't going to forget their party inclinations, though they all have a fine track record attempting to borrow and reform any good ideas that originate on the other side of the fence.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#39

Post by libertine »

umvi wrote: post #29

Targeted ads are still so incredibly stupid. Like... I watch anime. So then I start getting targeted ads for more anime. Sometimes I'm watching an anime, and then during the ad break I'll see an ad for the anime I am currently watching. It would be like if you were watching Jeopardy, and then during the commercials all you saw were ads for Jeopardy... so moronic

Don't underestimate the power of Frequency.

While you're watching ads for that anime, you're not watching ads for other entertainment solutions that compete for your attention.

It's like people think if you watch an ad twice in the same comercial break in TV is a mistake, it's not. It's planned and paid for.

Now, I'm not saying everything is done with that intention. But it's done, depending on your objective it's a great tactic.

Re: Targeted ads are one of the world's most destructive trends

#40

Post by knzhou »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #38
knzhou wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama and the Democratic Party are, by no stretch of the imagination, far-left. Indeed. My point is that social media works about equally well for both mainstream left (the Obama campaign) and mainstream right (the Trump campaign). It also works for both far-left and far-right. I know people who have been radicalized this way in both directions. > I suspect whoever had used it first would have been celebrated at th…

I'm not that naive. :p Of course it wouldn't be the NYT or Guardian reporting were the cycle at the opposite peak. It would be the Telegraph or I guess the US equivalent would be WaPo? Partisan newspapers aren't going to forget their party inclinations, though they all have a fine track record attempting to borrow and reform any good ideas that originate on the other side of the fence.

Are you British by any chance? The UK press really is different from the US, in that you guys have newspapers with a variety of slants, from left to right, which most everyone is aware of. But in the US, the common perception is that there is a “neutral” mainstream press (NYT, WaPo, etc.). However, these papers would never ever publish anything approaching admiration for a Republican campaign.
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