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Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

comlab.ox.ac.uk

101–110 of 177 posts

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#101
post #13

How is this different from majoring in computer science and minoring in philosophy?

This is approximately a "double major". For those in the UK unaware, "X and Y" suggests an approximate 50:50 split. "X with Y" suggests a heavy emphasis on X, more of a 75:25 split. And as others have pointed out, in the UK, apart from in some specific degrees (Cambridge Science Tripos springs to mind), the idea of completing a degree out of mainly self-selected units is a bit crazy.

[deleted]

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#102
I did my BA in philosophy (focusing mainly on ethics and political philosophy) and my MS in computer science, and I personally found the mix to work incredibly well, though not in the obvious way many people expect (which tends to be around epistemology and logic on the philosophy side and AI on the computer science side).

The point of a philosophy education is not to teach you anything in particular; there's no body of knowledge to absorb in the same way that there is for math or any scientific or engineering discipline. At most, you can treat a philosophy education as a history course focusing on the history of human thought (which is why, in response to some other posters, it's important in philosophy to study the past, even if no one believes such things anymore: it's more like history than physics).

The really valuable thing for me, however, was learning the process itself: how to make assumptions and pre-conditions clear and separate them from the rest of your thinking, how to make arguments clearly and fairly, how to break complex questions or topics down into smaller pieces and the put them back together, how to not take it personally when someone disagrees with you. A philosophy course of study will also make you a better, clearer writer and communicator. (And yes, sure, there's plenty of room for BSing and incomprehensibility in there, but if you take that away from a philosophy course you're missing out.)

All those skills translate and complement computer science very well. At its core, the process of software engineering (as opposed to just programming) is the art of taking something really complex and breaking it down into the right set of components: ones that are large enough to be useful, but small enough to be correct, and with the right relationships between them. Taking a large program or problem and breaking it down like that is basically exactly the same set of skills that you develop when you study (and do) analytic philosophy. Being able to clearly separate assumptions, facts, conjecture, predictions, and arguments is also a key skill in a domain like CS where thinking outside the box, as it were, is always important, and where the rules and possibilities change so rapidly. And of course, it never hurts to become a better writer: I've worked with and known some brilliant engineers who were far less productive than they should have been simply because they couldn't present their ideas clearly enough to other people, and there's simply no way to get a team to all work in the same direction if they don't all share the same vision. A brilliant idea that no one else understands because it's been poorly communicated is usually fairly worthless.

As an aside: I know PG doesn't seem to think he got much value out of his philosophy classes, but I wonder if his essays would be as clearly thought out and put together as they are without it. I certainly know my own writing would be far less clear (and far less rigorous) if I hadn't done my BA in philosophy and if I'd just focused on CS.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#103
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

That's really interesting and unfortunate you were unable to help move the conversation forward toward a more realistic understanding. I think it's probably a 'time and place' situation where you are in a class with a lot of different people intellectually and this kind of 'engineer think' can seem to distract from the heart of the conversation. Hard to say.

I think everything you are saying is actually more reason this is necessary, esp. right now as our understanding of machine learning and AI are beginning to yield some progress. And for some reason this reminds me of Krishnamurti and David Bohm conversing about the nature of consciousness - bringing together two worlds that typically are apart is really fascinating and ripe for new discovers of thought and understanding. All good things.

Some classic videos of their fascinating conversation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knu4ujA1rfU

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#104
post #95
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have any examples? I'm curious which philosophical problems have been solved by science. Edit: To be fair, I'll provide an example of what I mean. David Chalmer's "hard problem of consciousness" is about why we have qualitative experiences. You can explain all of our brain states in functional ways, like pain's function is to prevent damage, but that would still not answer the question of why pain hurts . I don't thi…

For one simple example, I believe there are still serious incompatibilists/philosophical libertarians--even after experiments showing that physical stimulation of the brain and even transcranial magnetic stimulation can alter perceptions, actions, and even cognitive processes. Daniel Dennett is a great example of a philosopher of mind who takes cognitive neuroscience seriously, but I don't think he's in the majority.

How is that fundamentally different from someone observing 2500 years ago that drinking wine could affect the same processes?

That is the point many in this thread are trying to make. The essence of the question is usually more persistent than it first seems.

That the physical can influence or even determine the mental has been known for at least as long as 3000 years. Those particular experiments you reference don't add much to the philosophical discussion of libertarianism at all.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#105
I completed my MSc in Computer Science at Oxford in 2009. My undergrad degree was a joint honours IT and Philosophical Studies BA (UoW Lampeter).

From my (limited) knowledge of how comlab/Oxford works, it looks like students will be splitting their time between the philosophy department and comlab.

I can't quite see how they're marrying the two together. I know from my first degree that it's a great combination - there's more crossover than you'd initially think. But it does rather seem as though you'd just be splitting your time between two very different departments, rather than literally studying the two subjects in harmony.

Interesting development though.

(PS: happy to answer your questions about Oxford/CS/applying/etc)

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#106
post #95
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have any examples? I'm curious which philosophical problems have been solved by science. Edit: To be fair, I'll provide an example of what I mean. David Chalmer's "hard problem of consciousness" is about why we have qualitative experiences. You can explain all of our brain states in functional ways, like pain's function is to prevent damage, but that would still not answer the question of why pain hurts . I don't thi…

For one simple example, I believe there are still serious incompatibilists/philosophical libertarians--even after experiments showing that physical stimulation of the brain and even transcranial magnetic stimulation can alter perceptions, actions, and even cognitive processes. Daniel Dennett is a great example of a philosopher of mind who takes cognitive neuroscience seriously, but I don't think he's in the majority.

I'm sure there are still some out there, but I haven't run into any. Most philosophers I know are compatibalists. Though to be fair predictable is not the same thing as determined, and we mostly think that determinism is false.

However, I think the true philosophical problem of free will is deciding what exactly a "will" is and what it means to be "free". You've got to answer that question before you can decide whether free will is compatible or incompatible with determinism.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#107
So take a degree, CS, which is almost irrelevant to most working developers, and mix in something that is irrelevant to almost everybody alive.

I'm already seeing job adds for sysadmins, php programmers and front end developers requiring a CS degree. In the future they'll be philosophers too?

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#108
post #100
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize if I am bad at articulating this. Philosophy of the Mind is much different from Artificial Intelligence. And it is also much different from Neuroscience. Neuroscience asks 'How does the Brain work?' (Based in biology and chemistry). Artificial intelligence asks 'How do I simulate human intelligence?' (Based in math, and computer science, complexity theory). Philosophy of the mind asks a lot of messy quest…

"when something has been solved by science, philosophers stop worrying about that realm so much" I think this sums up quite well why philosophy is perceived the way it is. Once something becomes useful it turns into a new field, which explains why it may seem as if philosophy accomplished nothing. Historically speaking, all (sans math? ~) western science stems from philosophy in its broadest sense.

In response to your comment and the (well articulated, btw) parent, the problem I have/had is in this part:

"when something has been solved by science, philosophers stop worrying about that realm so much"

The "so much" part was what troubled me -- most of the philosophy of mind class was historical developments, etc., but occasionally it did step into the realm of science, while ignoring everything science had to offer. Perhaps I had an ill-informed professor, but when the parent says that philosophy of mind deals with "messy questions", that suggests that sometimes it can tread on the toes of fact, even if unintentionally. The inability to recognize when that was happening was what disappointed me.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#109
post #13

How is this different from majoring in computer science and minoring in philosophy?

This is approximately a "double major". For those in the UK unaware, "X and Y" suggests an approximate 50:50 split. "X with Y" suggests a heavy emphasis on X, more of a 75:25 split. And as others have pointed out, in the UK, apart from in some specific degrees (Cambridge Science Tripos springs to mind), the idea of completing a degree out of mainly self-selected units is a bit crazy.

St.Andrews falls into that category as well, with its module and joint honour system being nearly as flexible as the American major/minoring.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#110
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

Your stance just reflects the depth of the divide - I refer you to C.P. Snow's lecture "Two Cultures", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures

I was referencing that essay in my comment.
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