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WebKit Goals for 2020

trac.webkit.org

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Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#61

Post by scrollaway »

rwmj wrote: post #22
skrebbel wrote: post #2

Pardon the all-too-typical off topic: woa, Trac! I haven't seen that in a long time. I have fond recollections of its customizability. Is it still being used in anger and improving, or is this just a legacy system we're looking at?

Trac was/is truly to most awful bug tracking system. I mean a primary function of a bug tracking system should surely be to accept bug reports from users, yet Trac manages to make that the least discoverable and least usable feature. Even things like subscribing to an existing bug report or listing bugs are very hard to find. I would say "impossible" for ordinary people, but will get accused of exaggerating, but go a…

Django still uses Trac. https://code.djangoproject.com/query

It really is awful.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#62

Post by Nullabillity »

Carpetsmoker wrote: post #10
asciident wrote: post #5

No WebP? Safari is about to become out of date, and websites will stop working for it. I'm using WebP on my websites with no fallback to jpeg/png at the end of the year.

Imagine being software developer with a sense of professionalism and dealing with your customers as they are, even if it's annoying a tad bit of extra work, instead of telling them to sod off if they're using a browser you don't like.

Personally the problem is not that I don't like it, but that I have no way to test against it. No, I'm not buying their overpriced crap just to see what they've broken for their users.

Even MS has had modern.ie[0] for years. Until then, Safari users are on their own[1].

[0]: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...

[1]: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#63

Post by hqrlk »

joneil wrote: post #19
tannhaeuser wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).

Browser vendors are finally catching on. From Firefox 72 permission prompts won’t be shown unless they’re triggered from a user interaction. From the blog post: > Notification prompts are very unpopular. On Release, about 99% of notification prompts go unaccepted, with 48% being actively denied by the user. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... I’ve heard Chrome is moving in a similar direct…

So instead of getting a permission prompt on load, I will get it when I first click on something. No thanks.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#64

Post by lucasverra »

hqrlk wrote: post #63
joneil wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Browser vendors are finally catching on. From Firefox 72 permission prompts won’t be shown unless they’re triggered from a user interaction. From the blog post: > Notification prompts are very unpopular. On Release, about 99% of notification prompts go unaccepted, with 48% being actively denied by the user. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... I’ve heard Chrome is moving in a similar direct…

So instead of getting a permission prompt on load, I will get it when I first click on something. No thanks.

Not if you close Tab before clicking :)

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#65

Post by tannhaeuser »

modeless wrote: post #58
tannhaeuser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push Such as? The only use case for notifications and PWAs I'm coming across are clickbait news sites creating a sense of urgency with "homepage was updated" modals obscuring content and capturing click events. Web user agents have freedoms in rendering pages to users, and Safari siding with users and power efficiency is a good thing. In line with other c…

Here's a site I made with a legitimate use of Web Push. https://james.darpinian.com/satellites/

Ok, but I hope you can agree that the overwhelming majority of uses is a user-hostile dark pattern in news sites where they put crap onto pages so you click on it to go away, with the intent to generate additional page views and ad play-outs.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#67

Post by hqrlk »

lucasverra wrote: post #64
hqrlk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of getting a permission prompt on load, I will get it when I first click on something. No thanks.

Not if you close Tab before clicking :)

There's the middle ground where I can freely browse the page without ever being prompted so see notifications. Apple gets this right.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#68

Post by millstone »

lwansbrough wrote: post #21
tannhaeuser wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).

You should understand the argument before you form an opinion on it. First of all, there are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push. Second, if you care about being bothered by shitty sites prompting you unprovoked, you have a couple options: content blockers or use different sites. The need for notifications is real and Apple’s choice to exclude their availability in iOS is a business move not a tec…

The need for notifications is real, but the need to protect users from unwanted notifications and tracking and fingerprinting is real too, and more pressing.

Every site complains about your content blocker. Every site wants to send you notifications. Every site wants your email address to advertise at you. And with PWAs, every site will want to establish a presence on your computer.

Your motives may be pure, but your chosen platform does not place you in good company.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#69

Post by modeless »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #65
modeless wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a site I made with a legitimate use of Web Push. https://james.darpinian.com/satellites/

Ok, but I hope you can agree that the overwhelming majority of uses is a user-hostile dark pattern in news sites where they put crap onto pages so you click on it to go away, with the intent to generate additional page views and ad play-outs.

Of course. Likewise, I hope you can agree that the abuse of Web Push and other new browser features is a problem that can and should be solved without totally giving up on those new features and blocking or removing them entirely.

I see a lot of people advocating that the Web should be essentially frozen at its current feature set or even regressed to something much less capable, and that makes me sad.

Re: WebKit Goals for 2020

#70

Post by chrisseaton »

kick wrote: post #42
rwmj wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they have to subscribe to the mailing list, which is another set of extra steps. Some people only know the web exists and don't even know mailing lists are a thing.

url: projectpage.tld/bugs Hi! If you're here, you must have found a bug. Send an email to XXX@projectpage.tld describing the bug, and we'll see to fixing it as fast as we can, and we'll alert you when we've started working on it! You don't have to have them subscribe, necessarily.

As soon as someone thinks about reporting a bug, they’re already doing you a massive favour. Making them go away and write an email (which many people don’t often do any more) you’re already going to be testing their patience. You should be bending over backward to accept the report.
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