As an undergrad philosopher who became self-taught hacker after graduation, I can say with confidence that this is a great synthesis. While contemporary academic philosophy is little more than a circular passing of jargon, there is no doubt that the practice of philosophy has inspired great science. Kant, for example, wrote books about anatomy and other empirical topics prior to this metaphysical work, and made presc…
As another undergrad philosopher turned self-taught hacker I wouldn't see why you'd want Philosophy to come down from the ivory tower. It's hard to imagine what would be of Philosophy today if Kant had spent all his life writing about science and hadn't given us the Critique of Pure Reason.
Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
61–70 of 177 posts
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apply?
That's like answering, "How do I write a good book?" with "Start typing." Applying isn't the same thing as "getting in"--it's one small part. Where do you apply to? What matters in the application? Do you apply under the course or do you apply generically? Are "A-levels" a thing that matters? What are people looking for in applicants, or how do you find out?
That's the best answer I can imagine to, "How do I write a good book?"
The difference between writers and everyone else? Writers write. Want to write a book? Start typing. Want to write a good book? You won't do it on your first try, so start typing.
The time for literary criticism and feedback is after you've written something to work with.
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
If physics was taught the same way philosophy is, we'd learn about the four elements before getting to Newtonian mechanics.
Every high school chemistry textbook I've seen actually works this way! It's horrible. The chapter starts with Dalton, works up through Rutherford and Bohr, and the last two or three I've seen ended there. Each section is presented as fact, and the kids are quizzed to make sure they know the material, before tearing it all down and teaching them a new bogus theory in the next section. Ugh.
I was taught atomic theory chronologically starting with the plum pudding model, then rutherford's model, then Bohr's model and finally the quantum models.
At each stage, the focus was on:
* What observations led the scientists in question to propose the model? e.g. in Rutherford's case, there was an extensive discussion on the gold-foil experiment, the observations he saw, and the conclusions he drew from it (e.g. that a lot of mass must be packed into a tiny space).
* What properties follow from adopting them model? e.g. with Rutherford's model, the notion of an accelerating charged particle (electron) would mean that the electron would continuously lose energy until it crashes into the nucleus. obviously this isn't happening.
* Repeat the cycle: how did bohr's model attempt to overcome these problems.
We did the same with the theories on acids and bases: how Arrhenius' concept required the notion of liquid to be present, how Bronsted and Lowry formulated it more generally as proton donation and acceptance, and how Lewis formulated it in terms of electrons.
I like that at each step, we learned WHY these models were proposed and how they explained the phenomena seen until then. We learned WHAT the consequences of making a physical model are, and we learned WHAT new observations could not be accounted for. Then we learned about how concepts are generalized to account for more information.
In contrast, if I had just been shown a beautiful but complex model at the beginning, I'm not sure I would have learned as much or held as much interest. The difference is like seeing a very elegant proof to a problem vs seeing the different half-correct approaches culminating into a final solution. I feel that if the goal is to teach people how to think like scientists, show them the process not the final result.
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#64Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…
(I also took a mind-body problem class as an undergrad, at Georgetown. It actually wasn't as bad as the one you describe, though nor was it perfect.)
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#65These two fields have been begging to merge for several years now. Great to see it happening. I'd like to see extended to a post-grad program. You could choose either business coding or academic coding. Both are rich areas for combining these two disciplines. Philosophy gives CS a broader, more conceptual view of how things fit together, and CS gives philosophy something useful to do -- it provides a hard edge from w…
"These two fields have been begging to merge for several years now." You could say this about almost every discipline, except maybe for religious studies and a couple other niche fields. Ignoring the epistemology is easily one of the biggest problems with academia today, to the point where 'higher education' generally isn't even much worth doing. There is a pervasive attitude on HN and elsewhere that we don't need ep…
There is a lot of two-way synergies between philosophy and mathematics, more so in days gone by, less so now. Many modern philosophers had a leg in both camps. Think Descartes, Leibniz ... Very recent philosophers have tended to stick to mathematical logic. Think Russell, Frege, the early Wittgenstein, Kripke. Now where is mathematical logic used an awful lot? Um, computer science! Little bit of a coincidence, no?
Computer science is part engineering, part craftsmanship, part mathematics. Many interesting conceptual problems are generated by comp sci that have been tackled in philosophy of mind and epistemology (by the way, I think you're using that word wrong) and the synergies are great.
You could absolutely not say this about any two disciples taken at random. There is of course the debate in academia that you allude to that the disciplines are becoming over specialised and that there is not enough cross-talk (inter-disciplinarity / trans-disciplinarity) going on and these debates have been held in cultural studies and at the governing board level of universities ... don't think these people don't see what's going on in front of there noses. It's a tricky problem to solve, there are only so many hours in the day and industry demands employable minds.
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#66Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#67Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#68Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…
If physics was taught the same way philosophy is, we'd learn about the four elements before getting to Newtonian mechanics.
If philosophy was taught the same way physics is, it would be utterly intractable.
Unlike physics, philosophy has little in the way of settled canon. There are precious few bits of established gained ground when it comes to the truly fundamental questions of a given area of philosophy.
At an entry level, the point of a proper philosophy education is to foster an appreciation for the big questions and for critical thinking.
From there, it is convenient to work historically as it provides both a natural progression of thinking on the topics as well as perfect training for how to find holes in arguments.
By begining with Socrates, the student is exposed to robust and relatively accessible arguments on most of the major topics in philosophy.
This helps students approach the questions earnestly.
Trying to begin with an examination of the current thinking on most philosophical topics would be almost impossibly divorced from that which a new entrant to philosophical thinking could grasp in a deep and rewarding way.
Instead, a good philosophy teacher can walk a student through a rewarding exploration of the major topics in philosophy across history, showing how the implausibilities of the past are far more robust than most think and how much of our present intuition is on far shakier ground than most think.
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. Facts are nice, but philosophical debates tend to be about things that are fundamentally unprovable, unobservable, etc. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences and other "hard" disciplines are frustrated by how useless their facts are in solving these debates. As someone with degrees in both a hard science and philosophy I'd say that…
Good philosophical debates tend to be about things that are, at least currently, unprovable or unobservable. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences are frustrated by how ignorant many philosophers are that the things they're debating have been observed in repeatable experiments and are no longer suitable fodder for philosophical debate.
Edit: To be fair, I'll provide an example of what I mean. David Chalmer's "hard problem of consciousness" is about why we have qualitative experiences. You can explain all of our brain states in functional ways, like pain's function is to prevent damage, but that would still not answer the question of why pain hurts. I don't think science can answer that question, at least not in a way that is observable and testable.
Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy
#70These two fields have been begging to merge for several years now. Great to see it happening. I'd like to see extended to a post-grad program. You could choose either business coding or academic coding. Both are rich areas for combining these two disciplines. Philosophy gives CS a broader, more conceptual view of how things fit together, and CS gives philosophy something useful to do -- it provides a hard edge from w…
You can manage to do something like that as a CS PhD if you have the right advisor, though it's harder to pull off than it used to be as CS has gotten much more obsessed about being a rigorous science. It especially used to be the case in AI, and in some corners still is, that a good thesis makes conceptual and philosophical advances in analyzing problems and domains (or proposing new problems), which are "validated"…
I did a double major in CS and Business during my undergrad at CMU ('09) and focused very much on practical learning (read: programming/web apps) and corporate/startup endeavors. However, I was always drawn towards studying the relationship between minds and machines on my own time. Mostly triggered from Godel's theorem, reading GEB/AI books, and some obsessive impulse to learn about my own mind.
Now that I'm working my first job, this impulse is stronger than ever. I find myself reading papers/books on philosophy, anthropic mechanism, AI, etc. during what free time I have. I suspect that I should study a PhD in this subject, given this impulse doesn't seem to be going away.
However, I have absolutely no research experience and had little contact with professors during my undergrad. Would you advise I seriously pursue this intellectual interest as a PhD (versus during my free time)? If so, do you have any thoughts on how I should go about applying? Given that most applications require research recommendations, I was thinking of contacting professors of papers I admired, but am not sure how well that approach would work.
Thank you for reading! My email is in my profile if that works better.