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Is Inequality Inevitable?

scientificamerican.com

371–380 of 628 posts

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#371
Income inequality is a sign that an economy is functioning properly. For people vary greatly in their talents, ambition, tolerance for risk, vision. Some can lead, delegate and inspire, while others cannot.

Some are great at collaboration, others love confronting difficult challenges. Some are great at squeezing suppliers and others good at pushing people to adopt the next wave of technology. Some know exactly what people want and others are incredibly creative. Some never stop learning.

Some do none of the above and only want everything defined for them with no risks or growth required.

How could anyone analyze all of this incredible variability and decide whether people get too much money for their contributions?

Income inequality rewards the development of all of those qualities.

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#372
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO it's incoherent to say that a locally extreme and accelerating quality of society is a consequence of broad and fundamental forces that have been in place for millenia. Fair enough that "self-evident" is inappropriate because it presumes perspective of the reader, but it's the coherence that I'm referring to.

I'll add that I think your comment was interesting which is part of why I commented on it. My comment was meant to be generic and the only reason I commented here was that I saw this thread was popular and your comment was near the top. So it is not a critique of the information and it was a bit unfair to call you out. I am hoping others consider not using those phrases so often. I've noticed very smart people use it…

There's plenty of excess that can be removed or revised for simplicity and understanding in Empacts writing style that would would help in clarifying and simplifying their point...

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#373
post #356
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a huge distraction to claim that this study is somehow an exemplar of problems on "campuses." There are apparently 1.6 million faculty on campuses and 76 million students [hastily-googled statistics], so to claim that they have uniform beliefs about the nature of the economy seems like an extraordinary claim to make, which I'd like to see substantiated more than this.

I suspect that beliefs are also distributed non-uniformly, and 1-2 beliefs dominate the discourse, while the widely varied rest is seen as minority / fringe.

You could argue that the distribution of beliefs is so uneven as to be almost oligarchic. :)

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#374
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasing the GDP is really easy, the government can pass a law adding a zero to all measures of money (so $10 becomes $100). Reducing inequality is also easy, confiscate people's wealth. The real problem is "people are not secure in their lifestyle" which is not addressed by the first solution and is probably exacerbated by the second. People getting antsy about inequality as a final problem instead of a symptom of…

How would printing money improve the GDP anymore than just lying about the figures? And since no one is suggesting that, I think it's kind of a straw-man. But surely these can't seriously be the best rebuttals to the paper: that straw-man, anecdotal opinion about college campuses and physics professors and a statistics joke about, but certainly not refuting, the elephant curve. I really can't tell if these arguments…

The GDP would be 10 times higher. It wouldn't be a lie. If the government wasn't completely blatant about it maybe store owners would only raise their prices by 9.95x and there might be a real GDP boost as well.

Is it stupid? Yes. Is it a straw man? Not so much compared to what is done in practice. When people seriously say that the policy is to "stimulate the economy" they mean incentivising people to consume rather than save. This has a positive effect on the economic figures but it is madness to believe it is setting up a better future; because setting up for a better future generally involves saving in the present.

> And since no one is suggesting that...

I haven't seen anyone propose a plan to tackle wealth inequality that doesn't involve confiscation and redistribution of some form or another. The argument is over whether that is appropriate or not.

As for GDP it is generally accepted that setting up a free market and leaving it alone maximises the GDP. There is lively debate about whether than is the best outcome. There is a serious argument that lower-than-maximum GDP with resource redistribution to the poor is better - which is what happens in practice.

> certainly not refuting, the elephant curve

There is nothing to refute. Inequality is not a problem - people can't even detect inequality! Nobody has a gut feel for it and the average level of mathematical intuition isn't high enough to understand the charts. Certainly people can't suffer because someone else has it really easy.

People suffer when their lifestyles deteriorate and we should be focused on preventing that. That is a completely different problem and one that actually deserves attention. The living standards of poor and middle class people is a real and ongoing issue that should be focused on. It does not matter if dealing with that makes the rich ricer. And in that context, the elephant curve can reasonably be interpreted as a massive success story that we can all be proud of as millions are lifted up to a better standard of living.

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#375

Income inequality is a sign that an economy is functioning properly. For people vary greatly in their talents, ambition, tolerance for risk, vision. Some can lead, delegate and inspire, while others cannot. Some are great at collaboration, others love confronting difficult challenges. Some are great at squeezing suppliers and others good at pushing people to adopt the next wave of technology. Some know exactly what p…

[deleted]

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#376
Income inequality I'm totally in favor of as a reward for creating value. Outsized value, outsized reward. With that in mind, I have a few caveats. To function properly:

- Social mobility must exist: income inequality is available for everyone based on their merits, not coupled to things like circumstances at birth.

- Wealth inequality must only exist for the generation that earned it. Passing on your largesse to your children is just as bad as the plutocracies that the founding fathers tried to escape. They should be rewarded for the value they create, not the value I created.

- The bottom line is pulled up to the extent that you can live a comfortable life even if you fail.

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#377
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get why lately the trend it to focus in inequality instead of focusing in poverty. Because outside of extreme poverty that is rare in the West, relative deprivation seems to be a more significant source of experienced disutility and other social dysfunction than absolute deprivation.

What are the trends of relative deprivation? I know it's not a defined and studied concept, but if the relative deprivation is in a decreasing trend, I believe that it would mean we are in a good direction. Anyway, if the problem is relative deprivation we should focus on that, instead of focusing in inequality. I believe it would be more productive to improve things. Is inequality the "cause" of relative deprivation…

> Anyway, if the problem is relative deprivation we should focus on that, instead of focusing in inequality.

“Absolute deprivation” is having less access to material goods and services than some fixed standard.

“Relative deprivation” is having less access to material goods and services than others in one’s social milieu.

Relative deprivation is an inherent aspect of inequality; the two are inseparable.

> Is inequality the "cause" of relative deprivation?

No, it's not the cause in the same way that being a triangle isn't a cause of three-sidedness; it's more closely linked than causation.

> I believe there are more important causes, like corruption, for example.

Corruption can be a cause of (or mechanism of perpetuating) inequality, and thereby contribute to relative deprivation, but it's not a cause of relative deprivation independent of inequality.

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#378
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all humans of sufficient ability (except those with extreme mental handicap) have innate means of production. Even those who have lost use of their limbs have an innate means of production via their minds in the form of intellectual property. Honestly, even many with mental disability but physically capable are capable of producing value from relatively little.

Your bar is too low if you think that things are okay because "you can always become a starving artist".

More like “you can get a job and use the money you earn to buy tools.”

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet all of the modern means of production stemmed from no means of production... hmmm. People create all of the time with extremely limited resources. Especially ones that haven’t been seized.

How would you go about building your own means of production for creating modern computers?

It took a large part of modern industry working cooperatively for decades to build the tooling to make ICs. If your commune wants to make a similar effort then there’s nothing stopping you. If you don’t then you’re not entitled to own a chip fab.

Re: Is Inequality Inevitable?

#380
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the trends of relative deprivation? I know it's not a defined and studied concept, but if the relative deprivation is in a decreasing trend, I believe that it would mean we are in a good direction. Anyway, if the problem is relative deprivation we should focus on that, instead of focusing in inequality. I believe it would be more productive to improve things. Is inequality the "cause" of relative deprivation…

> Anyway, if the problem is relative deprivation we should focus on that, instead of focusing in inequality. “Absolute deprivation” is having less access to material goods and services than some fixed standard. “Relative deprivation” is having less access to material goods and services than others in one’s social milieu. Relative deprivation is an inherent aspect of inequality; the two are inseparable. > Is inequalit…

> “Relative deprivation” is having less access to material goods and services than others in one’s social milieu.

I cannot buy a yacht, while some rich guys can. Therefore I'm relatively deprived, according to that definition. That's not a problem.

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