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Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

necpluribusimpar.net

171–180 of 261 posts

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#171
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It proves that reddit admins take steps to deal with people who abuse the site with spam, which is what one would expect of any forum administrator for any spam content. If their content was so compelling, why did they have to spam it? Why wouldn't it just attract users organically the way other content does?

>Why wouldn't it just attract users organically the way other content does? [[citation needed]] Would you like to present proof that t_d did not grow organically in 2015/2016? So far you're heavy on claims and light on proof.

Citation? No problem. Here it is:

> A hilarious example was when Reddit was trying to deal with the_donald successfully spamming reddits hot algorithm.

- buzzkillington in Hacker News comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21463480

You were the one who stated that /r/the_donald spammed Reddit to reach the front page. Are you changing your story and now saying they reached the front page organically? Are you confused about what spamming is?

If there really were a large number of people genuinely interested in the_donald, it would have reached the front page without spamming. The reddit algorithm is probably also biased against posts trying to sell penis enlargement pills. Do you think that is also oppressive?

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're not talking about inalienable rights. That's implied in the title of the linked post. If you don't care about "good"/"bad" decisions and just care about the legal bounds, just say so and dismiss the article out of hand. Your roundabout question just drags discussion down.

The thing is, people rightfully are pointing out an important issue ("corporate tech giants have monopolized the public speaking space and are holding unaccountable power") and but inexplicably ignore the obvious solution (break them up and/or emigrate to federated/decentralized platforms while actively promoting them) in favor of the worst possible one (force Twitter to unban nazis).

How does breaking them up not kick the can down the road? Presumably the forces that led to the monopoly of users will be in play after they're broken up. Enforcing freedom of speech on platforms that have become de facto utilities or public spaces is the only permanent solution on offer.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#173

Private companies should be able to censor political speech, period. If it's my desire to build a platform that is favorable to certain types of speech, that's my right and the government shouldn't be forcing me to modify my platform to rebroadcast speech I disagree with. In terms of conservative complaints about leftist censorship, I have to simply roll my eyes. The conservatives complaining about big tech don't car…

I think you are right. But I would also argue that such censorship should be as transparent as possible. Though the real question is, at a certain size of user base, does a private space not become a public one? Or rather, if there is no alternative of not having censorship, no place else to go, does the censorship not become a problem then? I am not sure what the solution here would be, actually, but while I think i…

I would be willing to pay taxes to fund a government run online "public square" that could not be legally censored, but I am fundamentally opposed to taking control of privately owned websites and forcing the owners to host content that they disagree with, especially political content. I disagree with the idea that the number of people visiting a website is an important metric in determining the owner's property rights.

> at a certain size of user base, does a private space not become a public one

I think that's a question worth exploring, but I think any honest discussion of this idea has to acknowledge that most of these social media companies are essentially trivial entertainment sites and that if we are really trying to designate access to twitter as a basic human right we must first consider why life saving drugs, housing, and healthcare are not human rights.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#174
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what you think would happen to the New York Times if they were to get sued in your imaginary hypothetical? Editors can and have been jailed. They are ultimately personally responsible for what the paper published.

Which contemporary examples (i.e. within the last 50 years) are you referring to? Journalists have been threatened with imprisonment for protecting sources from government subpoena. But the sanction is for refusing a court order, not because of the publication content. https://archives.cjr.org/opening_shot/opening_shot_july_augu... And in any case, a publisher is different than a utility or a platform. Social media u…

If it is as your say why would you object to Mark Zuck being personally liable for all content posted on Facebook? If anyone slanders anyone else and his platform publishes and disseminates it, why should he not be considered responsible?

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#175

> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company. IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging…

> IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging platform for fear of being labeled an extremist by "polite company" I downvoted you because this is a ridiculous claim. If you use a platform like Gab that embraces bigots and extremists perhaps, but that's not the only other platform.

Does Gab embrace bigots, or simply not remove any legally permissible content? I was under the impression that it was the latter. If it's the only place where unsavory content is not removed, then of course that stuff will be over-represented.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government should regulate Facebook, Google (Youtube), Twitter, etc. as utilities that they are. The current situation where the corporations aren't responsible for the content but can censor it is the best example of why they should be treated as utilities.

I don’t want to live in the dystopia where Facebook is utility. It is not remotely comparable to water, electricity or roads.

Communication platforms are absolutely as important as electricity and roads in today's world. And like it or not, Facebook has a near monopoly on certain classes of communications.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#177

I have a wide view of what 'censorship' is, and I include spam filtering in the definition. For example, a while ago I saw an advert for some kind of erection-causing pill on a forum discussing C++. If the forum moderators remove such a post, they make the forum more efficient by saving other users (who are looking for C++ content) from themselves having to filter out irrelevant information / a sales pitch. I also se…

>If this very comment had been about some unrelated topic...it would be right for the comment to be censored from this discussion

By that same logic, we should censor your comment, because this article is not about filtering bot/adspam from small niche forums; It's about mass censorship and manipulation of organic political opinions on platforms with billions of users.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#178

It's hard to take this argument seriously when the only companies mentioned are left-leaning tech companies such as Twitter, Facebook, and Google. I suspect that the author's concern isn't censorship per se, but censorship of viewpoints he happens to uphold. If Twitter's suppression of conservative content is bad, then so is The Federalist's suppression of liberal content. You're about to argue that one of these is a…

It turns out that people who suffer under an injustice are the ones most motivated to draw attention to the injustice. Whether the author has a personal motivation for his concern is utterly irrelevant.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people do take issue with things that call themselves "news" promoting one side of the ideological spectrum. That being said, social media is just that: something users can post to. Twitter users were not hired to promote a particular point of view, they were invited to share their own point of view. To then go through and cull the people you invited to share based on ideology while still calling you…

It sounds like you're saying that what a company calls itself determines which ethical obligations apply to it. I can agree to an extent, but I suspect there's a different point here. Twitter, per its own website, is "what’s happening in the world and what people are talking about right now." Is there any way to revise this sentence—or any other aspect of the Twitter brand—such that Twitter would no longer be subject…

> Twitter, per its own website, is "what’s happening in the world and what people are talking about right now." Is there any way to revise this sentence—or any other aspect of the Twitter brand—such that Twitter would no longer be subject to these complaints of censorship?

I would say no. It's a service designed from the ground up to allow people to speak their mind. When they start editorializing who is allowed to speak their mind, people will rightfully complain of censorship.

I suppose they could change the tagline to:

"what’s happening in the world (that we approve of) and what people (we like) are talking about right now."

I don't think many people would be excited to use that service though.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#180
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What right do journalists have to have a platform for promotion and advertising? Either before or after the Internet and Twitter.

We're not talking about inalienable rights. That's implied in the title of the linked post. If you don't care about "good"/"bad" decisions and just care about the legal bounds, just say so and dismiss the article out of hand. Your roundabout question just drags discussion down.

The title and content of the post implies that we should regard private censorship with the same concern as we do government censorship, regardless of the current legal framework. Which I don't necessarily disagree with. In fact, I think most people here are on the same page of: it sucks big time when a company like Facebook can unilaterally decide that the famous Napalm Girl photo should not be displayed.

So where's the argument? Where's the discussion? Forgive me, but I don't find the above assertion interesting to discuss when virtually everyone agrees with it. The actual topic of interest is: how can we prevent Facebook from making such decisions over its own platform?

That's a pretty big question with a lot of angles. So I chose, for the sake of argument, to focus on what the parent commenter highlighted, because its specious premise raises issues with the author's overall premise:

> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company.

In the history of our society there has never been free or equal channels of promotion, i.e. advertising or being featured in mainstream media. It has always been the case that if you didn't pay, or otherwise get noticed by mainstream media, you were unheard and/or considered to be part of a "hotbed of extremism".

So I ask of the author (and those who agree with him), if you want to argue that Facebook/Twitter should be compelled to not censor, then what sense does it make to assert people (journalists are not) have a right (legal or moral) to have their self-promotion be noticed, when that precedent does not exist? Moreover, it's just a flawed premise because I can think of journalists big (e.g. at the NYT) and small (e.g. former students of mine) who have paid careers in journalism without being active on Twitter. I contend that this is not just quibbling over minor facts, but an example of how the author's argument only makes sense by ignoring details of how the world actually works.

What does this one point have to do with the article's overall premise? He wants our society to change in a significant way, but he neither accepts the legal consequences that would follow, nor proposes an alternative framework that would be feasible. I don't disagree with that Big Tech Censorship is of huge concern. But I believe that if we want to change this status quo, we'd have to agree to give the government greater powers to regulate private industry and wealth individuals. The author doesn't want to grant this, rendering this entire discussion to be an inane impotent exercise.

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