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Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

necpluribusimpar.net

141–150 of 261 posts

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it more likely that the author chose Facebook, Google, and Twitter not because they're left-leaning, but because their traffic is vastly more significant than The Federalist? The three are all top-50 sites globally. The Federalist doesn't even make it into the top 10k. It's pretty rational to focus more on the sites that have the most traffic when discussing bias, isn't it?

> It's pretty rational to focus more on the sites that have the most traffic when discussing bias, isn't it? I feel that if a person is making an argument from principle, then that principle should apply everywhere and not just where politically convenient to them.

The author does:

> ... although it can be leveraged against big tech companies that are biased in favor of liberals, this line of argument also has implications that conservatives may less readily welcome. For instance, it means that how rich people use their money to promote their ideas may also be a problem, insofar as it distorts the marketplace of ideas.

The principle he's arguing is that when an organization that has a de facto monopoly on a type of information stream (search, microblogging, and social circle media) uses that monopoly to favor one political viewpoint, that is harmful to society because it "distorts the marketplace of ideas" by preventing equal access to said marketplace.

The Federalist is not in this position. For every conservative magazine like The Federalist, there's a liberal one like Mother Jones. This is the "marketplace of ideas" that the author refers to in action, not a distortion of it. So the author is, in fact, arguing from principle, just not the principle you're using.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#142
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say if the mods do it yes, if it’s the hoi polloi then no.

> If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. -- John Stuart Mill

Point is, Mill lived in an era where dissemination of information was barely at a steam-engine equivalent, whereas now we've got automated opinion-generating rocket systems in orbit ready to barrage millions of info missiles at any online discussion at any point in any language within 300 nanoseconds.

New realities need new quotes.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a combination of the right to free expression and free association, not just for journalists, but for everyone. I should not be prevented from hearing things i might be interested to hear, or from hearing things from people i 've chosen to associate with because someone 3rd party thinks they re not nice.

If I run a website, why doesn't my free association right extend to kicking people off it?

you are absolutely free to - but in that case you should be held to the same legal standards as newspapers who edit their content.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, if you could stop spreading the lie that there is some magical distinction between a 'publisher' and a 'platform' that somehow limits what a business is legally allowed to do, I would really appreciate it, and I know a lot of other folks would too! Thanks! https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190613/03172142391/once-...

OK you can replace "platform" with "protected by CDA 230 ", the argument still stands as is. https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230

I'm not sure what you think you're proving with that link. CDA 230 does something very close to the opposite of what you seem to think that it does. It protects the providers of interactive computer services from liability, but it does not restrict their control over whether to provide those services or not, which would of course obviously be a violation of those interactive computer services' first amendment rights. CDA 230 protects, it does not restrict. The text of the code is really quite straightforward and easy to interpret if you do it in good faith, putting your ideology aside.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#145
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s the thing. On dedicated forums we know the protocol. We don’t want spam and we don’t want politics. If it’s a political forum we expect all civil exchanges to be treated equally. So a proponent for Owls and a proponent for sawmills both get their say and one doesn’t get “deranked” or de-monetized because it’s not the popular opinion or the au currant opinion. We don’t expect one political candidate to be artif…

> we expect all civil exchanges to be treated equally Define civil :) Take any hot button issue like guns, abortion, etc. where your stance on one side of the issue can be seen as immoral or life threatening to the other side. Take a passionate / borderline tweet from one side and you'll probably get a 50/50 disagreement on wether or not it's "civil". Now what? Block the tweet? Warn the user? How many people need to…

So the WBC is an extreme case. Obviously it’s problematic. Their tactics are disgusting, and really it’s counter productive to their cause, though they are more like nasty trolls.

But we’re seeing issues where things are not problematic but because people are guilty of thinking “wrong”. If I want to discuss international politics and think we should liberate/invade country X or conversely we should leave country X well alone, I should not get penalized for articulating a point of view.

One thing I don’t understand is, if I follow janeblow@ I should not get offended by her tweets. I have the power to unfollow her, I can block her. I don’t see why people’s reaction id to get janeblow@ suspended.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the solution is simple: If any “platform” censors beyond removing illegal or copyrighted content or spam, they should have their “platform” status revoked, and they should be considered a publisher. This prevents such companies from using “platform” status as a cost saving mechanism to help them become large monopolies. Companies like Facebook would not have been able to take over so much of the market…

That pushes the power to control who says what from individual companies to the government, since the government is classifying "illegal."

Illegal comes in two forms: illegal to publish like calls to violence and libel laws which refer to newspapers and "publishers". While the government can sway #2 to introduce political biases, it's not easy to change the definintion of the first in an obviously biased way

The companies can still choose to remain nonpublishers, i.e. platforms - but they have to be impartial. That doesn't mean that censored communities can 't exist in their platforms - but the censoring can only be done by an entity unrelated to them. I think it's a good compromise to separate the platform from the censors.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#147

> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company. IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging…

> IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging platform for fear of being labeled an extremist by "polite company"

I downvoted you because this is a ridiculous claim. If you use a platform like Gab that embraces bigots and extremists perhaps, but that's not the only other platform.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK you can replace "platform" with "protected by CDA 230 ", the argument still stands as is. https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230

I'm not sure what you think you're proving with that link. CDA 230 does something very close to the opposite of what you seem to think that it does. It protects the providers of interactive computer services from liability, but it does not restrict their control over whether to provide those services or not, which would of course obviously be a violation of those interactive computer services' first amendment rights.…

> it does not restrict their control

this whole thread is about the hypothetical situation in which the two are linked by new laws

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the solution is simple: If any “platform” censors beyond removing illegal or copyrighted content or spam, they should have their “platform” status revoked, and they should be considered a publisher. This prevents such companies from using “platform” status as a cost saving mechanism to help them become large monopolies. Companies like Facebook would not have been able to take over so much of the market…

Once you add spam to this list, it becomes super fuzzy. Unsolicited marketing is obviously spam and so are the Nigerian scams, but what about some cult manifesto or conspiracy theory or chain mail letter? Or possibly a crowdfunding link that some well meaning, but misguided people sent around a few thousand times? Or possibly a request for donations by some non-profit? Propaganda posts by a political party? Where is…

Why would a “conspiracy theory” be considered spam? A chain mail letter might be spam. A “cult manifesto” is probably not.

I don’t think it’s too fuzzy, as long as companies don’t arbitrarily define “things we don’t like” as “spam”.

Re: Censorship is bad even when it’s done by private companies

#150

> For instance, if you’re a journalist and you want to promote your work, there is simply no viable alternative to Twitter at the moment. No other microblogging platform comes even close to having the number of users Twitter does, and most of the alternatives are hotbeds of extremism, so that anyone who joins them is thereby disqualified in polite company. IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging…

> IMO if you can't even try to use an alternative microblogging platform for fear of being labeled an extremist by "polite company" I downvoted you because this is a ridiculous claim. If you use a platform like Gab that embraces bigots and extremists perhaps, but that's not the only other platform.

i do have a colleague that would be shocked if i created a gab account.
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